vintage versus modern speakers

VOLTAGE PARADIGM ? can anyone explain in everyday terms?

Rocknnroller, here is a white paper written on Voltage/Power paradigm by Ralph of Atma-sphere:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

I'm afraid that I have a mostly contrarian opinion that falls in-line with Timlub's thinking on vintage vs. modern speakers. I don't think that modern speakers are necessarily better SONICALLY than their vintage brethren. Yes, BUILD-wise, the modern speaker has a lot of positive attributes going for it such as better manuf technologies & more tightly controlled manuf process for speaker drivers. Yet, given these 2 items, it does not mean that the speaker manuf will do a better job designing a better speaker today vs 30-40 years ago. In fact, quite the opposite! My experience from audio shows, listening to people's systems in the USA & over-seas tells me that most modern speakers are SONICALLY no better off than the vintage equivalents.
Modern speaker tout modern materials such as Kevlar, aluminum, Berrylium, etc, etc but I have yet to come across very few select speakers designers who can use these modern materials to their advantage to make a speaker that sounds like real music. 99% or more of the modern speakers just cover up their dismal performance but touting exotic materials, CNC machining, CAD design of their x-overs, etc, etc. When you have a 1-1 conversation with the speaker designer, I quickly realize that they have very little in-depth knowledge of the effects of their x-over & what it does to the phase of the music signal. Many don't even realize that preserving the phase of the music signal is the name of the game in speaker design. Many others do but they don't know how to solve the problem so they cobble together some highly compromised solution that is good enough knowing that the consumer's eyes will glaze over when the throw out some buzz words if they (manuf) are questioned by the consumer.
Further almost all modern speakers have impedance & phase curves are worse than the most hellacious roller-coaster you have ridden. These fast changing one-moment capacitative-next-moment-inductive impedance/phase plots will drive almost all amplifiers to their knees leading to only sonic dissatisfaction. Only the hardiest (& obviously very expensive) amplifiers will be able to muscle the modern speaker into producing reasonable sounding music. Most other amps will output sound from the speakers but they will leave a lot to be desired. The user will forever be on the audio merry-go-round. In fact, there is even a thread to this effect on the "tech" or "misc" forum.....
I realize that the OP has cited his SAE amp's specs & even informed us that Pass or a close associate of Pass had a hand in designing this amp. Having a famous person design an amp means only so much w.r.t. its sonic performance. The amp-speaker interface is very important (discussed at quite a bit of length in either the Amp or Speaker forum. Might be worthwhile reading that thread to narrow down which speaker type will fit best with your SAE amp) & most people put very little thought into it only to be disappointed later on. A solid-state amp's current delivery into a varying load, dynamic headroom, (for me) bipolar vs MOSFET, negative feedback, signal bandwidth, power bandwidth, output impedance are some of the criteria that set one amp apart from another to do the right job for the speaker in mind. If you are going to fix the amp (SAE) better ensure that the speaker selected can electrically mate with this amp.
Purchasing a modern speaker by no means implies sonic pleasure when installed in one's system. Just troll the Speaker archives on Audiogon & on AudioAsylum if you are not convinced. Very few modern speakers will give you long-term sonic pleasure & almost all of them will cost you more than $1500.
Many vintage speakers in good condition will last for a very long time - several have cited Infinity & AR as some of those brands. There are several planar speakers too that fit into the excellent-sounding, good-condition vintage speaker category. Yet another brand with superb sounding speaker is Tannoy - not mentioned before - esp. those that used their 15" Alnico magnet dual-concentric drivers. I believe one can DIY one's cabinet & also buy ready-made cabinets if one can get hold of these Alnico drivers. And, many vintage speakers will sound just as good if not better than modern day speakers with just a component upgrade to their x-over. Infact, I'll 2nd Larryi's post in saying that some of the best sonics I have heard are from speakers using 1920-1950s speaker drivers in modern manuf cabinets.
So, don't rule out vintage speakers from your search list. In the end, none might fit your budget/space/looks criteria, so be it....
Just my 2 cents worth, FWIW. YMMV.

But now you can get that for a lot less money due to better manufacturing technology and materials.

I disagree! Runnin, that's what I'm trying to say - today's newer materials have not necessarily translated into better sonics. For 99% of the speakers in today's market, that's an emphatic 'no' from my experience.

02-09-15: Runnin
Wow, that was quite a post!

LOL! :-) glad you "liked" it, Runnin....

one more point to the OP - make sure that the speakers you select are suitable for the Voltage Paradigm (as opposed to the Power Paradigm) since you will be using a solid-state power amp.
You can search the Audiogon archives for Power Paradigm & you'll find that Ralph from Atma-sphere has very generously given us a lot of info on this subject. Good topic to be versed in. Now, most of the speakers are voltage paradigm but not all of them are. If the speaker is currently manuf, the manuf will be able to shed light on what sort of amp works the best. If it's an out-of-production speaker, troll Google to get as much info you can on that speaker....
Probably more info than you bargained for but IMO important info to make a wise/educated selection. FWIW.

02-09-15: Runnin
I'll guess we'll have to disagree then.

yes, I think this would be the best. :-)

The modern woofer/driver has long throw movement that wasn't possible in the 70's.

ok, so? many vintage speakers never lacked a great bass foundation. And, who says that speakers of the '70s are the only speakers that qualify as "vintage"? what about speakers from the '80s & '90s? I would consider them as vintage as well.

The cone materials today can be stiffer, lighter, and therefore faster.

correct. How many speaker designers know how to maximize this in their designs such that their end product sounds like music & not hi-end sound?? Very few - less than a handful. So, merely having the best materials does not mean a superlative speaker.

Cabinets can be engineered by computer with programming that's done faster and better than any old school methods

correct again - CAD makes cabinet design more convenient; not necessarily easier. Still how many modern speaker designers get their cabinets done correctly so that the box does not resonant, the baffle is strong enough, doesnt splatter the hi freq, reduces the comb filtering, etc, etc so that their end product sounds like music & not hi-end sound?? Again, less than a handful.

How long are the caps in a 30 yr old speaker going to last?

agreed, they have a finite life. So, if you read my orig post, I did clearly mention that new x-over components is very likely needed. Yeah, not everyone is a speaker tech but a lot of people on this forum are savvy DIYers. IMO, if the speaker is worth the music is reproduces then having work done on the x-over is worth it.

In the 30 years, how often has it been abused?

Yup, this is definitely an important question. It's no different than buying a modern day speaker. Yeah, abusing the speaker many times (vintage) vs. fewer times (modern) can (will?) reduce the longevity of the drivers. But who's to say that a fewer times abused modern day speaker's driver will last any longer?? Like Metman wrote - "...and due diligence goes a long way so choose wisely...".

Look, Runnin, in my original post I did not write that the OP has to buy vintage speakers; I wrote that he should not dismiss vintage speakers. You can read my original post again - this is clearly written. And, I still maintain that a half-baked modern day speaker design is not much better off than a vintage speaker. Half-baked is half-baked not withstanding the newer materials, manuf tech, CAD, etc, etc. None of these newer designs assure the user of a better product.

I think some are simply used, familiar and accustomed to the sound characteristics of their old school speakers. Anything new will of course be different, and immediately viewed as inferior.

Are you referring to yourself here?? I feel the comment certainly does not apply to me - I've owned a few modern day speakers & if I find one today that sounds like real music, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it....

02-09-15: Runnin
Bomb, at the end of the day, your following comment says all one needs to know about your bias.

I've owned a few modern day speakers & if I find one today that sounds like real music, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it….

Runnin, I'm afraid I don't understand how this shows a bias??? Please explain to me & all of us. Thanks.

02-10-15: Schubert
Bombbaywalla, I agree with much/most of what you say.
To my ears though one guy who does get things right with off the wall design is Anthony Gallo.
Any thoughts on him?

thanks, Schubert.

I'm afraid not - I don't think i've heard any of his speakers. Sorry!