Using Test LP - curious observations

With regard to (1), Audiofeil nailed it. Using an over-amplified test track makes no more sense than using its opposite, an ungrooved surface. Neither corresponds to real-world conditions. Adjust VTF and A/S by listening to real music.

With regard to (2), the amount of azimuth adjustment needed to equalize crosstalk is EXTREMELY small, 1 or 2 degrees at most. You want the stylus vertical in the groove to minimize vinyl wear/damage so always start from that point: make the stylus look vertical whilst playing a (real) record. Then make TINY, TINY, TINY azimuth adjustments whilst listening for the tightest imaging. When you think you've got it nailed, recheck that your stylus still looks vertical. Again, no test record required (and no mono switch either, my preamp doesn't even have one).

Train and trust your ears, leave the poorly designed tools on the shelf.

A degree of anti-skate is essential.
Recordings such as soprano with piano accompaniment can be useful. The soprano is usually well centred and will produce sustained notes not dissimilar to a test tone. In this way you adjust against any "edginess" on the most intense signals.
The idea is that it should barely handle these real world signals and no more.

Wholeheartedly agree with all of the above EXCEPT the first sentence, which deduces a general principle from a single example while ignoring multiple contrary examples already posted on this thread.

Moonglum's rig requires A/S to eliminate edginess on the most intense signals. My rig does not (with most cartridges). Five of Audiofeil's six rigs do not but one does (with some cartridges). CONCLUSION: some rigs require A/S for clean play, some do not. Any absolute statement one way or the other is demonstrably false.

I do use Moonglum's recommended recording types and listen for exactly what he described. The sound tells me how much A/S I need... if any.

Doug

P. S. I do not play with excessive VTF to compensate for low/zero A/S. In fact, I play my reference cartridge well below the midpoint of its recommended range, just barely above its mistracking point, exactly as Moonglum recommended.

I was surprised at how much my previous phono section added to the buzzing heard in bands 7-9.

Nanbil, that makes perfect sense and is consistent with the observations made by Atmasphere and myself on this thread . The noise source being discussed there was record surface noise (clicks and pops) but the mechanism applies equally to the high velocity/high amplitude transients on some test records (including, most definitely, tracks 6-9 on side 1 of the HFN&RR record). Read Atmasphere's last post for a technical explanation.

As your new phono stage reduced the distortion of buzzing from this stupid test record, I'd wager that it also reduced the distortion of record surface noises... right?

If it's such an objectively verifiable problem, why do some (and that's Harry Weisfeld included) don't hear any improvement with anti-skate applied?

It's not that we don't hear any improvement. I do. It's just that we hear many more detriments that swamp the improvement.

***
The problem, as I've posted several times over the years, is that real-world A/S mechanisms apply lateral bias to the TONEARM, yet the skating force they're trying to counteract is generated at the STYLUS.

Imagine, if you like, grabbing the STYLUS with your left hand and pulling it inward (skating) whilst at the same time grabbing the TONEARM with your right hand and pulling it outward (anti-skating). This is what's actually happening with skating forces vs. anti-skating mechanisms.

It's easy to visualize that these unequally applied biases necessarily pressure the cantilever against the suspension. This pre-dampens its freedom to make excursions based on groove modulations. Result: softened micro-dynamics, slowed transients, dampening of the finest, lowest-level sounds in the groove. Sound familiar?

This is why excessive (any) A/S sounds almost exactly like excessive VTF. Both pre-dampen the cantilever against the elastic suspension, reducing its freedom.

The ideal A/S mechanism would operate like this: your left hand pulling the STYLUS inward (skating) whilst your right hand pulls the STYLUS outward with exactly the same (ever-changing) force, with zero lag time of course (anti-skating). This would avoid pre-dampening the cantilever and, if perfectly implemented, would carry no sonic penalty.

Of course no one has or ever will build an A/S mechanism based on a perfectly reactive string tied to the stylus and pulling outward. ;-) The mechanisms it's actually possible to build are necessarily imperfect, as described above, and will always carry the associated sonic penalties as well as benefits.

SirAnthony,

It isn't VPI tonearms in particular. I hear what Harry Weisfeld hears on my TriPlanar and on a Durand Talea. Audiofeil hears similar things on five of his six tonearms.

It's partly cartridge-dependent and partly a matter of how well a cartridge/tonearm combo tracks difficult passages. The new Yatra I had on my TriPlanar for a day or two also needed a scosh of A/S. OTOH, the Airy 2, Airy 3, Atmos, multiple UNIverses, a Lyra Olympos, two Benz's and two MMs all needed no A/S after 2-300 hours of break-in. It's possible the Yatra might have reached that point too (on my tonearm) but I didn't have it around long enough to be sure.

What tonearm are you using? If it's toward the lower mass end and/or if your Yatra lacks the SB weight, that would create a borderline combo for trackability that might necessitate A/S.

Moonglum,

Good question:

...you will no doubt have seen cantilevers bent like a bow due to skating force

Actually, I have never seen a cantilever bent/angled due to SKATING forces and I doubt anyone else has either. Skating forces pull the stylus inward. Providing that nothing resists the inward movement of the arm, no particular stress is placed on the cantilever. Everything just follows along and no deformation occurs.

OTOH, I have seen cantilevers bent/angled from excessive ANTI-skating forces.

If an unweighted cantilever is bent/aimed INWARD then excessive A/S or defective/sticky tonearm bearings should be investigated as possible culprits. Since these both present resistance to inward tonearm movement they may deform the suspension. (Manufacturing defects or user abuse are also possibilities of course.)

If an unweighted cantilever is bent/aimed OUTWARD then a manufacturing defect or user abuse is highly likely. Skating forces, anti-skating forces or sticky tonearm bearings would not cause this.

The last possibility that I can think of why the cartridge might sound better without AS is tonearm geometry set-up. We must use our protractors to set the HTA and VTA in a static situation. That means that while the cantilever is loaded in the vertical direction (VTF) it is not loaded in the horizontal direction. That slight difference could be audible to some.

Quite true, it's certainly audible to me. Any change in horizontal loading produces a change in SRA. That's one parameter that I (and some others on this thread) adjust for every LP we play.

Perhaps some tweaking is required to compensate. When I am setting up my tonearm position, I pull on the platter to load the stylus in the horizontal direction as I position the tonearm.

Exactly right, though it's tricky to do accurately if using a high resolution protractor like the Mint.