Yes, electrostats are also dipoles but I'm having difficulty with definitions that I've recently read in regard to dipoles in general. Descriptions are not all exactly the same but the things that seem consistent across the board are that the designs require speakers to be in separate enclosures facing both front and back in an out of phase configuration or that the speakers are mounted on what amounts to little more than boards. The term "enclosure" is also confusing in regard to the open dipole configuration.
My question regarding dipoles being used for solo instruments goes to another thread that I initiated and Elizabeth kindly responded to. I was soliciting advice regarding monaural presentation of solo guitar music that may be a more pinpointed as if the artist was sitting across the room. From what I read about dipoles, which would include my Odysseys, is that they create a wide stage which seems the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve.
I recently have my Odysseys configured with a permanent A/B selector device with a pair of Jamo Concert Eight bookshelf speakers. These Jamo's present a realistic/accurate reproduction of guitar and light jazz but are lacking something when listening to classical symphonic music or movies (in stereo) so I need to find a single speaker pair that satisfies both of these two extremes.
The bottom line is that I remain confused. I'm pretty sure, though, that, even though the Genesis is a really beautiful speaker, I should start looking for a decent conventional speaker instead of continuing with the dipoles. As a matter of fact, from what I'm reading, dipoles seem to be the speaker of choice for surround sound, something that I no longer listen to. |
Dweller, I'm not that well versed on audiophile terminology so I can only attempt to describe my issues using terms that I hope will make my point. I'm not trying to "remove" soundstage; I'm simply trying not to add apparent room filling sound where it should not be. I only occasionally listen to orchestral music and appreciate the fullness that I get from the Odysseys but when I'm listening to one person playing one guitar, I want it to sound that way. It was for this reason that I originally had questions regarding a way to employ monaural listening using a stereo system.
Elizabeth kindly responded to that post with advice regarding my speaker setup. Thanks, that was one of my original concerns and I believe that my speaker setup is correct. BTW, Elizabeth, based on hearing issues that I had described, I was fitted with hearing aids. The jury is still out on that one. Although my hearing is improved for general social communication, I'm not yet convinced that listening to music is enhanced except that I'm able to discern detail at lower volumes. |
Newbee, thanks again for your input. Yes, the Odysseys are somewhat of a setup challenge, an issue that I've dealt with for over 30 yrs. During that time I've used Acoustat, Martin Logan and Magnepan. Maybe it's because of the curvilinear design of the ML's but I found these to be the biggest challenge of the panel speakers. Also, I find that the setup requirements, especially as regards toe in, seem to be different between orchestral vs single guitar music. I know, I know; this may be a mental issue but it's how I perceive it to be.
As I mentioned earlier, I recently added a pair of Jamo Concert Eights (great speakers, btw) which I bought used, just for listening to solo guitar. They present excellent detail with surprisingly tight and very ample bass. For a larger stage such as for symphonic music I find the the Odysseys are completely adequate. For small jazz groups it is a toss up between the two sets of speakers.
This is the type of compromise that probably most audiophiles would find an affront to their sensibilities but, again, it works for me. Don't get me wrong, though, if I could afford the expense that I assume would be attendant with high end conventional speakers I would welcome the idea of a single pair for all of my listening genres. |
Jcharvet, thanks for this advice. Even though I've used dipoles for so many years I've never tried this, primarily because my listening room is my living room and we were concerned with how it would look. In the past several years, though, I've begun listening to a lot of solo guitar and maybe it's time to revisit the thought of limiting the phase effects of the ML's.
In regard to this, I'd like to know how important it is to have the panels located on the wall. It would be relatively easy to experiment with this idea but do you think it possible to accomplish the same effect by hanging something like a panel of felt behind and attached to the frame of the transducer panel? |
Mrmb, I decided not to try the felt; the egg crate design foam seemed to more closely resemble the material used in anachoic chambers that I've seen. Also, felt actually seems like a fairly hard material, now that I've looked at it, and it may be somewhat reflective of sound energy itself.
Anyway, the design I'm using will be an attachment to the Odyssey cross brace holding the damping material approximately one foot behind the tranducer. I could easily be wrong in assuming this but, because of the curved design of Martin Logan panels, damping material closer to the speaker may work better. |
Mrmb, yes, I do have some success to report. I mounted the acoustical foam on the back of the frame about 10" behind the panel which keeps it mostly out of sight. Based on my way of thinking, because of the concave design of the rear face of the tranducer, placing the damper closer to the source may be more effective for this design.
Anyway, listening to solo guitar seems noticeably improved. The most notable of these improvements seems to be an enhanced center stage effect. The overall presentation seems less complicated and cleaner. I really don't know how to describe what I'm talking about but, although the differences are subtle, I can definitly say that I like it better.
The biggest enhancement to my listening enjoyment, though, is my having been fitted with a good pair of hearing aids. I recommend this approach, btw, to anyone having difficulty finding problems with their equipment. It might be your ears. I know this because I spent over a year replacing components, interconnects and speakers to correct what I perceived as deficiencies in my system. |
Thanks. Even though we could attempt matching our room decor, because a lot of time and money went into finishing this room to our tastes, we really don't want to hang anything on that wall. I do, however want to experiment with dampening as you mentioned.
I'll try the method that I already alluded to. It sounds like you're familiar with the construction of the ML transducer frame so I'll explain how I intend pulling this off. Using a felt panel cut to the dimensions of the transducer, I'll use the topmost frame cross brace for attachment of the cloth to the back side of the panel. It will hang about 10 inches behind the panel.
If this works out for listening to solo guitar I can leave it in place with the option of easily removing it for listening that requires a more expanded soundstage. I'm going to a craft shop tomorrow and choose an appropriate material. |
Jcharvet, I bought some egg crate design open cell foam and cut two panels from it to match the dimensions of the transducer panels of the Odysseys. i had my wife and a grandson hold these panels about ten inches behind the speakers and started listening to solo guitar CD's.
At lower volumes I could discern no difference whether or not these dampers were in place. At higher volumes, though, there is a noticeable difference which seems better with the dampening in place. This difference seems as much related to an improved center stage as anything else. The bottom line is that this reduction of reflected energy improves listening for me, at least for this solo instrument. |
Mrmb, thanks. The foam that I got, and I should have been more clear, is not the cream colored rubbery stuff that one puts on mattresses. It is acoustical foam (polyurethane or polypropylene?) sold specifically to reduce hard surface reflections. By most standards, though, especially materials made for commercial anachoic applications, it was quite cheap. A 4'x8' sheet was less than $80 of which I only used about half.
Maybe now that I know it works I may look into trying some higher quality purpose designed material. |
Thanks for your advice. What I described as egg crate is actually of a pyramidal design so is probably a little more efficient because the angle of attack of the sound waves is shallower.
As far as SPL value is concerned, what I consider loud depends on the frequencies in question, but, in general, it would be somewhere in the vicinity of the mid 70's. |
