Upgrading sub to get a live feel.

My current short list of subwoofers are

JL F113 or Seaton Submersive

Most likely Seaton

I am hopping that the sub upgrade will hold off my 4367 purchase. 

Thanks a lot I will look into it.

i also believe that the mids and lf are the most important part of music.

i currently have the subs right under my main speakers. They image very well but still lack that physical presence.

Should I have the seal or ported closer to me?

I watch a few movies here and there, maybe once a month. I don’t really care that much for movie sound quality, most of the time it isn’t master very well, at lease the ones I am watching. But when it does it’s nice.

I think you can always plugged the ported ones up and get close for testing. 

I ordered two PB-1000 subs and will work with two my SB-1000, they are free returns for 45 days, so there is no harm, with wonderful upsides, and will report with my experience.

I’ve also found a store around me with JBL 4367 to demo, and I will see how much low end those speakers will produce, and if my current setup can compete.

JBL 4367 do lack the lowest octave, because of their driver design, and will need subs regardless. 

Check back in a month.

Thanks Tim.

I am going to be a live feel, not actual live music db. 

Be patient. 

They are 6 inches away from the wall, and I'll turn everything down and see how it goes. 

When the SB were originally set up they added additional headroom to the speakers, without being heard were my standards. 

lol, this thread is way off topic now, but I got my subs so lets play.

I listen on average between 90-95db.

The PB-1000 is significantly larger in size than the SB-1000.

The room size is 16x30. The speakers are placed on the 16 side, and I sit about 11 feet away from the speakers. The SB are located right under the main,  6" from the wall.

The SB-1000 are set to about 65Hz to blend, zero phase, 60% volume. I’ve always found very clean and articulate bass at this current settings, and anytime I’ve made an adjustment, I’ve dialed it back to these.

First test just running one additional sub (3), placed on the left side besides my seat, set at 60Hz, played with gain to peak bass, and 60% volume. The biggest difference is an increased amount of headroom, the speakers felt slightly larger. It blends well in this position, but you can feel the physical bass being directional. That feeling makes you slightly detract from listening.

Second test, quad sub, placed along side seating position against the wall. Similar settings, but with 45% volume, because the wall gives it a boost. I get a nice spacial balance, but I could not get them to blend in this position. At those settings, I got a bit of harshness in the low regions.

I finish the evening with using one additional sub, as I got tired, and just wanted to listen to music.

I think I have to lower the crossover point when running dual tonight, and see how that goes. 

Got a few more hours in last night, 

Sub set up is now staggered, with one PB against the wall distance between speaker and seating position, one PB a little behind the seating position. 

Turned down the PBs to 50Hz and volume set to 30%. 

The speaker still feel larger, but less so now. 

Bass blends well at this point, but i am still experiencing a tiny bit of harshness in the music. Noticeable in the lower-mid/upper bass regions.  It lacks the cohesiveness of my original set up.   

I think this evening I will try to turn down the SB too and see if that helps. 

1. What are the brand and model numbers of your other components? I need to know whether you're using an AV receiver, integrated amp or preamp and power amp setup.

Resonessence Mirus DAC > Pathos Atrium Preamp > Odyssey Kismet Mono-Block
 
2. How do you currently have both of your SB-1000s connected? I need to know what method, line level or speaker level connections, you currently use and how you planned to connect all four subs. If you don't already have a plan, I'll figure it out but it may require you buying a few things before we can begin.

SB are connected using speaker level input, the PB are tapping the speaker level from the SB. 

3. Are your JBL 4319 main speakers positioned on the floor, on stands or a different method?

The speaker currently sit on top of the SB 

The amp has pretty big bass, the DAC also has very detailed and articulated bass, the preamp is neutral. 

Will be trying, 

As to the  Mirus DAC, after trying a few DAC, it is an exhausting process and not fun to try a bunch of them, at lease not for me. The MIRUS was the most uncolored and accurate DAC, but watch out for USB source, as USB has inherent audio issues. I used iso regen and their LPS, and it solved the usb problem. 

I also have a demo tomorrow with the JBL 4367. 

I was able to get the system to work and sounding good, that I didn’t want to mess with it for the evening. The solutions were I didn’t need to move any of the current front set up, they sounded great as they were, the JBL were made to not interact with the environment as much as other speakers, but I might be tempted in the future to move them. Two things that solve the lower mid range harshness was lowering the front subs crossover point to even lower. Bass response and imaging improved with the two new PB using the crawl method. They ended up behind the main seating position against the wall.

The SB front are set at 60Hz and the PB are set at 50 Hz
SB volume is at 50% and the PB volume is set at 35%.
Phase for all 4 is at 0.

Since it is all set now, i’ll play with the crossover points maybe a little more until I get the cleanest imaging.

Then I’ll try to push the volume up a little.

The results are larger sounding speakers, I went in with the expectation of wanting subs that created a lot of energy, if you’ve been to a proper set up room with big subs, you know how that feels. What I got from this set up was just larger speakers that are very accurate, detailed, and enhanced sense of space. It isn’t like a big game changer, but if you have a great sound going and want that extra headroom, this is a wonderful solution. It is a good incremental improvement for a very reasonable price, but I also got more value recapping the speakers. I also have a feeling that if you already have powerful speakers bass like B&W 8xx, this set up with small subs might not keep up. JBL have a very neutral bass and this fits.


As for demoing the 4367, I cannot say I can give a proper review of it. The place I went to had it set up for home theater, at 175watt per channel. The mids and bass were non existent. But to what I can hear. The 4367 have the JBL sound but just in large size. If you like the JBL presentation of music, the 4367 does them. The highs are extended and non fatiguing. I also can’t say it made me want to upgrade, as my current system sounds significantly better than what I heard, but it wasn’t a fair match. I can tell if the 4367 were done properly it would sound like what I have, but just bigger. Maybe when I have the itch to go larger, i’ll scratch, for now I am happy. I like JBL for their sound, I thought I could get significantly better sound as you go up, but the price to performance was not there. 

Yes, thanks Tim. 

I already have some speaker stands I can use and the current set up has the tweeter aligned to ear level.

I’ll report back in a few weeks after everything is set up, and I’m able to spend some quality time with the setup. The initial dip into this has been promising.

As for the SB, I think they will still be place closer to the main speakers, as they integrate better, because they produce a puncher upper bass output. The PB will be set further back. 

The phase control method is a great idea. 

For me the crossover points has been easy, as I can hear when the crossover points are too high. The imaging starts to feel like your in a hallway and it the upper bass/mids get harsh. 

Volume will be the fun factor, I think everyone has different tolerance for bass notes, and it is going to be as high or as low as one can tolerate. 

Off to a great start. 


Thanks again.

After a week of setting up, my review of the system is consistent with the one I've posted. 

I ended up moving the speakers forward 3 feet away from the wall (I have other things in my room so I can't move them that far away). The imaging improve marginally, a bit cleaner. 

Did the crawl test, and the subs are about the same relative place, with two against the front wall and two behind the seating position. 

The phasing was next, using the reverse polarity method, and since the subs are all about equal distance from the seating position and in the relative to the speaker. So all phasing ended at pretty much zero.

Crossover same concept, I paid attention to low mid range harshness, and tuned it to a point where harshness is gone. Starting with the pairs closest to the speaker, the ones far away should not be set higher than front. If you still sense harshness, the ones closer to you should be crossed over lower than the fronts. 

Volume is fun to play with, if you set them all the same you get a better sense of space, but if you set the front higher than the rear, you get stage imaging. I'll play with this setting and see what comes from it.  
 
The sound is effortless and cohesive extending the dynamic range of my speakers and enhancing the sense of space. For about 2 grands its a deal compared to not even the price of one high end sub.