2. amps-preamps
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Upgrade my Sonic Frontiers Line-2, or buy a used solid state Pre?

I bought a pair of Revel M106 speakers to replace some ancient active speakers. I plan on buying a used Pass Labs XA30.5 amp to drive them. FYI, I also have a Velodyne F1200 sub. 

Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but I suspect the 16 year old Line-2 won't equal the amp or the speakers in terms of resolving power. For $1000, I can have Parts Connexion upgrade my Line-2 to the latest components, which according to Chris Johnson, would yield significant improvements. 

My question is, are there any used solid state preamps that would sound better than the upgraded Sonic Frontiers Line-2 for around $2500?

My other question is, does anyone have an idea how the Line-2 SE Plus would compare to the current crop of products out there, tube or SS? Is it worse or better than a Halo JC2, Pass XP-10, Peachtree Grand Pre X-1?
 
sboje

Showing 6 responses by adg101

adg101
1,063 posts
 
Send your Line 2 to Chris for the upgrades before you go SS. I think you'd have to make the move to the XP20 to do better. The Line 2 will hold its own with your future plans. Get the Pass amp first and see how your Line 2 does. If you're running Sovtek tubes and etc. not NOS tubes you've never heard what the Line 2 can do. Plenty of info out there on what tubes in your preamp are the more critical ones to change out. My Dad has a Line 1 and tubes can change that piece a lot from being good to really good. Also a PC is very important on that piece as well.
adg101
1,063 posts
 
Very Happy with the EH tubes I run in my ModWright. I use EH tubes from Cryoset Certified and have been very pleased with them. 

I recently picked up a set of Daedalus DiDs Isolation Devices which I can't speak highly enough about. Took them over to my Dads system to throw under his Line-1 and it made a huge improvement on his pre as well; really opened it up. 

The SF Line series of preamps are more solid state sounding than an older ARC and CJ tube pre's I agree but not dry. You throw in the right tubes and it's another story. My LS36.5 is a killer preamp but it's not a big fat tube sound either, but I'll throw it up against much more expensive SS preamps any day. Obviously we all have our own opinion on what sounds right.

You already own the SF. I wouldn't give up too soon on it. I have a Pass amp as well and I think you throw on a nice power cord and some DiDs under your Line 2 you'll be amazed. For the money WyWires Silver Juice II is great; it's a very open, transparent PC Get the amp first and play around with your Line 2. 

Good luck

adg101
1,063 posts
 

No disrespect to Klyne Audio. That was not my intention on my earlier post. I've not heard their preamps but over the years I have read many great things about them. I'm sure they make a great product. What I was trying to imply is the SF Line-2 is no slouch. I am fortunate enough that we have two really nice local shops that have been around a long time; one a relative of mine owns and one I worked part time at years ago. Both stores let me take gear home all the time and that has been great for me to educate myself and train my ears. Between the two stores they have sold most known brands including the former Sonic Frontiers, Pass Labs and Revel so I know this gear well. Lived with a Sonic Frontiers pre previously and have a Pass amp, so I know this product well... very well.

Back to your original post... Your Line-2 is more than in the league with your Revel M106's. Careful I am not saying the M106 is not a nice speaker because it is, but I have heard the Line-2 on bigger Magnepans, Thiels, and Vandersteens with Levinson, Classe, Sonic Frontiers and Conrad Johnson amps so I know it can hold its own even today. The Line-1 is a very nice preamp as well  and I have heard it on the same speakers including Dunlavys, and ProAcs; my father has ProAcs and his Line-1 is more than adequate with his ProAcs and ARC tube amp.

Is the Line-2 in the same league as a Pass XA30.5? Well I would say again it will hold it's own just fine but Yes the Pass is the better piece; anyone who argues that is being silly maybe. If you tweak your Line-2 a little as I mentioned in my earlier post you will hear the benefits through the Pass. Also if you are getting the XA30.5 or any Pass amp you are wasting your money if you don't run it balanced so no matter what you do with your Line-2 or get another preamp because you have the bug to upgrade I would strongly inform you to use a balanced preamp regardless if it SS or a Tube design. Likewise if you are not using balanced cables on your Line-2 now you should be because it will sound more open; it's not something you have to really concentrate on to hear - it will be obvious with decent cables. I agree with someone above the cost of sending it in for an upgrade may not yield much of an improvement but other tweaks will.

I would recommend to make sure the rest of your system is up to your Line-2. What is your source components, cables, and etc.? If you don't have dedicated circuits to your equipment I would do that as the Pass will not come to it's potential it has to offer; my Pass was thin sounding until I ran dedicated lines. If you can't run dedicated lines I would still change out your receptacles to at least some nice Hubbells. Maybe you have done all this, but if you haven't you haven't heard what your Line-2 can do or the rest of your system. Give your Line-2 a chance on the XA30.5 before you ditch it. Only downside I do have with any tube preamp or any tube equipment is tubes go bad and there is a cost maintaining them.


I wholeheartedly agree both SS and Tube camps offer great equipment; both can be great. I believe its all about synergy as one piece might work great on one system but not another.   Good Luck.

adg101
1,063 posts
 

What are you using for an amp currently to rule your Yamaha receiver is more transparent than the Line-2? I can't imagine any receiver especially a $250 AVR has a better preamp section. Not sure if you're cranking the treble on the AVR giving it more brightness it seems to sound better or what is going on.

You mentioned you replaced the tubes; did you do them all and do you have any means to check them. I have an older Arcam AVR and it's ok and my father has a much newer higher priced Marantz AVR, but it's no where near his Line-1 in performance and your Line-2 should be even better. Maybe that Yamaha is just a giant killer?

I bet the 508.24 still holds its own. I wouldn't rule it out as not being a nice performer with all the gear you are discussing. If you are running some 25 year old cables I'd invest the money there first, or if they are new but the entry level of whatever brand, you should experiment with proper cables. This gear should sound really good with nice cables.

The 508.24 was a well regarded player. Sure newer players have improved and maybe an Oppo 105d makes sense if you're system is mixed into a home theatre set up as well. Agree you might be better spending money on your source than your preamp, but I wouldn't get in any hurry.

Hopefully you have a tube tester  or have a shop locally that can test your tubes and put the Line-2 on the bench to check it out. Something just doesn't sounds right if you're preferring your Yamaha. If you have your Line-2 plugged into some A/V power conditioner with your A/V equipment trying plugging it directly into the receptacle; same will be true with the Pass you have coming.


Best of luck

adg101
1,063 posts
 
Maybe, but I suspect the XA is a little more refined regardless. My Aerial's require a lot of power so I'll stick with the X series. Can't recall if you're running balanced cables from the SF to the Pass as that will lower the noise floor. My X250 is a little noisy but not much even running balanced; it's not my preamp. If you're running a shielded PC on your Line 2 see if you can get a non shielded PC like a Kimber PK10 Gold or whatever they renamed it. The Kimber works great on SF preamps... you'll be amazed.
adg101
1,063 posts
 
Interesting. My Dad has a Line 1 and running it through his ARC VT50 tube amp, no matter how far you ramp the volume up it is dead silent with ones ear right up on the tweeter. He runs NOS tubes so maybe they're lower noise. No doubt sending it into to Parts Connexion will be well worth it. Great to hear you're enjoying your Pass.
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