No 22 is on its way to reach a forward looking client...
Syntax, great images, nice cart |
Dear Raul,
as I am very keen with the Automotive industry I know that a lot of money is made in the After Sales Market. So why not in the Audio Industry? You are right usually you need to have some good tiers on your car when you pick it up at your dealer. But when you decide to equip it with flat runs you pay an exgra charge - if you are willing to do so.
I hope you have a good car at home :-) |
Dear Raul,
understand very well. maybe we all have spent a little too much in too many different solutions regarding finding the exact geometry for our tonearms. I became happy with the Dennessen but did also see the limits for other installations when getting to know that some data inputs from some manufacturers for their own arms were not the right ones for special cartridges we are using. Therefore the situation for someone who deals with more than one tonearm/cart was calling for a universal approach. I have big hopes that the Uni-Pro is a good answer for those multi-users but I also wait with an assessment until I have made my own experiences with the sets ordered. |
Complexity is always a challenge in this world. If you decide to live in a more simple world (not a bad meaning at all) you better go for a one tonearm/one cart soltion. There is no need for changing the tires. Nevertheless if one wants to reach the capabilities of Genesis 168 being able driving a Honda as well as a Ford even on different tiers ( also feeling the difference) you may need a good garage or excellent tools.I learned that some of us, Raul too and me as well, are sitting in front of a complex world.
There might be two ways of dealing with complexity. Usually we try to reduce complexity heading for simple solutions. A side effect of this approach is also reducing cognitive dissonance - you start feeling better!
Another way is to develop solutions for different requirements and tackle various applications by using different methodologies. This is something - at least to my understanding - the Uni-Pro approach is aiming at in this special field.
In the end everyone becomes happy. The manufacturer of a gauge adressing requests of potential customers going for a simple solution as well as those multi-users or people wo really care about exact geometry in various application fields. This means: There is no need for a war - at least not in this thread... |
Dear Nandric,
"reducing the complexity means to me not being able to deal with it"
not necessarily. reduction of complexity was and is sometimes a way of gaining new insights - one will believe or not. And it is also a survival pattern in some difficult situations enabling the individual to cope with it.
Of course you are right the psychological implications are also evident when it comes to results being feeded by personality habits avoiding or defending actions. You may conclude from special communication styles and patterns if the individual is able to deal with complexity or not, mostly using only one or two special behavior patterns showing over time. In this way most of us are not very well trained or prepared dealing with complexity.
thanks for your compliments. You are right I am a very optimistic person but having gained experience about "the real world" I do think that we need controversial discussion to some extent. This is what makes it different to the glossy magazines.
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Jj2468, this is a very good question. Why not playing the records the way they were cut? Due to the theroetical advantages linear trackers should dominate the market.
They do not.
First of all really good linear trackers are quite expensive, you need a precisely aligned horizontal bases to put the arm on, in most applications you need a vacuum driven guidance of the arm adding a compressor. To reach minimal friction, a precondition for linear trackers, because the cartridge moves via groove edge the total mass of the tonearm the alignment is not an easy one as one may assume.
The length of the cantilever and the compliance issue have some important impact on the interaction of tonearm and cartridge in this concept. This is with other arm concepts a little less critical, also because you have skating. With linear tracking arms you may not use all kinds of cartridges due to the friction issue which may lead to destruction of the rubber parts over time.
Taking into account all these preconditions you may reach excellent results with a linear tracker. I would not like to miss the advantages of this concept. |
Dear Don Quichote, what do you think about linear trackers? |
my first impression with the Uni-Protractor is: very well built quality, the magnifying glass is just great. Very precise alignment is possible. Now I need to test the 8 different tonearm specific inlays, will report... and discover new possibilities maybe... |
Dear Geoch, you state:
"the skill of the user to follow the offered precision is irrelevant"
what does it mean? As most of us do know and have learned how to align a cart & tonearm combination properly I have seen and heard many times inproper alignments. Having used for many years the Dennessen I know that you need a good time and some patience and also some skills to bring the needle into the hole.
Unfortunately what we are missing in our hobby are learning or training courses on proper alignment. if you don't have a good trainer/coach/friend not only giving you shows or demonstrations (I attended once Mike Fremers demonstration at the High End but this is theory demonstration
only!) and you are not doing it by yourself under supervision using a good tool you will always struggle or feel insecure. Do ask most people out there - not the hardcore guys - how they feel about this.
maybe this is what Synatx tried to demonstrate. 1mm correct or not, if you have the chance to match it exactely why not going for this?
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan
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Jazzgene, I suppose your name gives a hint to your favourite music, this fondness we share! while you might already have unpacked your Uni-Protractor let me describe my experience after having aligned two tonearms, the SAEC WE 8000 and the FR-66s.
I used to take the Dennessen when I start aligning which I regard for most of my tonearms as an absolutely appropriate tool. In the beginning I was a bit sceptical also being influenced by the controversial discussion in this thread.
When I started with the SAEC the difference was not only one or two mm, the original SAEC geometrical data for the WE 8000 suggest a completly different set up. I had to bring back the cart for about 4mm which was not easy having to tackle with the special WE 8000 headshell. In the end the musical result is fine. I have to admit I also liked the Dennessen position.
Nevertheless this motivated me to try it with the FR-66s (images on my
page). Here the difference was only 1mm, hence a small gap which can make you happy or not.
I played back with the EMT JSD 6 Jubilee Series, originally designed for my EMT R 80 - coming with an EMT connection. Thanks to a wonderful adapter (from EMT to SME) it also matches with the FR arm. I have to admit this is not only a great cart but having it aligned with the Uni-Protractor it plays precise, provides subtle and detailed information and is also able to drive forward - offers a mellow push.
Dealing with the Uni-Protractor is much more easy than I thought. Of course you have many parts, in my case 8 inlays, but you may keep the Protractor within reach when dealing with different carts and tonearms - for me it is a very good instrument. |
Syntax a Marketing Manager? - I thought he fights against Marketing?
always learning new insights...
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
John Gordon , you are new to Audiogon. This is your first thread´s reply which is ok. I am wondering about your conclusions which run on a string, IMHO the only intention to undermine Dertonarm`s reputation. I am not going into detail, T_Bone did in a very persuasive way. If you are really an expert on tonearm design you may have a different approach to this topic as you used it.
Best & Fun Only
Thuchan |
Dear Geoch,
I know there are still some "fossile guys" out there believing they ( and so everyone) is able to aligne a tonearm by just a small piece of paper. They tell their customers or friends precise alignment is not as important as buying the right tonearm or product. Their customers are usually not very eager learning about proper alignment and its exacetly what they like to hear from 'those gurus' . " you bought the right product, don't worry at all". As long as the (analogue) world will allow herds of followers to believe in such crude philosophies we should not bother about the existance of audio afficinados never being able to distinct good from bad sound.
The (analogue) world is like it is, some good developers and failed ones.
Mostly the failing guys do have a motivation to define the world and tell the succesful developers what they seem to have done in a wrong way.
believe me, I do know producers of tonearms and even turntables who do understand the theoretical implications of proper alignment but they do not really care about it. showing images of inproper alignment may help for a better understanding of the topic - that's all.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
John Gordon,
at no time I said I accept everything what Dertonarm says. If you look into the many threads you are now stating from you should know this. Also discussing controversial I regard as absolutely essential, not only in this thread. I have no clue what or who is driving you.
If you do know Dertonarm from the threads and you obviously studied many, especially the threads he participated in, you may know that Dertonarm is a critical contender too but more on the content side. If you have an honest agenda you will enjoy it discussing with him, not necessarily sharing all his opinions.
best & fun only - Thuchan
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Dear Jazzgene,
wow, did not know you are in the professional music field. great! i just received "The Recordings Of The Beatles" . You get a feeling how enthusiastic and technical advised those engineers were in these days. Long forgotten. Therefore the quality of many products of today are somehow ... I received the manual yesterday and I do think it is very helpful. Not many developers take care as Dertonarm did. On the other hand for such a product it might be absolutly mandatory.
I remember tonearm developers not being able to produce some good words on their own product. nevertheless not every developer needs to be a good marketing guy of course.
I received my EMT JPA66 and I am playing around a little with my FR-66s arms. Good to have a Uni-Protractor when you need to change carts. IMHO The discussion in this thread goes a little backwards and many positions are repeated. I would like to hear some critics or experiences others have with the tool.
Best & Fun Only -Thuchan |
Dear Jazzgene,
regarding Antiskating I had the VPI Memorial 12" tonearm and it's a pretty clever construction compensating by the wire. Harry is fully correct, Antiskating is mostly overrated. This has led to extensive usage by tonearm users damaging the carts over years. I am very careful with used carts cause many show signs of desorientation.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear Bydlo,
you may align EMT arms with the EMT alignment gauge. If you send me an e-mail I will answer and attach it. The better and more precise alignment you will reach with the UNI-pro coming with the 997 or 929 inlay. This is what I did. You can see it on one of the images on my page.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Hi John_Gordon, like it what you you said: we can`t just sweep it under the mat... this is also the case regarding precision! we don`t like to listen under the mat and you don`t do it too.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Maybe all said about antiskating. Nevertheless it was quite an exiting expedition and I am still admiring my Ortofon RMA 309 how it manges all these requirements. No I don't need an answer - not this time and not here.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Downunder, I fell into the same trap as you, and you are completely right: The Feickert provides a comfortable distance measurement.
What I did: I fixed Dertonarms scale tool on the Dennessen, putting the black middle round over the spindle as a horizontal bases, and put the Azimuth transparent block on top running it against the scale (see last image on my page).
I am now absolutely precise on the distance and in the next step I do use the UNI-Protractor.
Of course you are right it would be fine to have it within one tool. maybe Dertonarm will consider a UNI-Protractor v2 combininig these capabilities.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Halcro,
After further engagement with the Uni-Protractor I can share your experiences. Especially regarding the "frosted mirror design". It is sometimes very difficult to hit the point. If I am using a lamp into the direction of the needle it helps a little to find the exact location.
regarding the P2S measurement I have made a suggestion in my answer to Downunder. At the moment I do think a two step approach, P2S measurement, then using the UNI , makes the most sense.
It is not a 9000 Dollar arm which comes in a 200 Dollar box, but you understand that this tool is designed for other purposes. Nevertheless I wish i had a wooden box to put in the fully build up Uni-Protractor just to take it out for usage when neccessary.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Albert,
you may get some comfort in changing headshells if you are using those ones with a fixed cart like the Fidelity Research FR-7 series in the same arm. This is among other reasons why I have one FR-66s on each Micro. Also the EMT JSD 6 Jubilee which I regard as a best buy for its quality and its wonderful sound provides a fixed solution.
The Ortofon RMA 309 allows changing EMT & Ortofon carts "nearly on the fly" not changing anything even not the weight in most cases.
Bu to be honest the real fun we have when "working on our arms and carts". Otherwise we cannot use our alignment tools resp. the Uni-Pro.
I also wonder why it shouldn't be possible to move the Uni-Pros arm to the middle as you describe it. |
maybe the simplest solution is to print an exact scale meter on the Uni-Pros arm and supply an extra transparent block using parallel lines and matching the layout of the Uni-Pro just at the spindle site . You may then put the extra block over the black round spindle positioning it exactly over the middle of the spindle and facing it towards the scale meter as I have tried with my Dennessen approach. You are then able to read the distance easily. No more Feickert, no more Dennessen necessary. Dertonearm may provide a modified Uni-Pro arm and the block as a substitution package.
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
I was always thinking about how to combine my measurement suggestion with the Dennesson and also the alignment by the Uni-Pro. Therefore only using one tool!!! For me the quest is over! You may see the result on my page (last image)
Best & Precision Only - Thuchan |
Dear Dertonarm,
do you have a launching schedule in mind?
Best & Fun Only - Thuchan |
Dear Bydlo, the cart in the EMT shell is a modern EMT cartridge, a JSD 6 made by EMT Studiotechnik GmbH. As I like the Tondosen too, especially the new designs, this one is superior - maybe with the exception of the Lzi but this is carrying a SME shell.
You may align also Tondosen with the EMT gauge or the UNIprotactor.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear Dertonarm,
any signs of the UNI-P2S having left the labratory or even production stage. The world is waiting...
best & fun only - Thuchan |
Dear Dertonarm,
wonderful - see you next week.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
I just aligned my EMT 997 tonearm (NOS old design) with the UNI-Pro's 997 template to reach the full EMT geometry. I compared with common two Null-Point protractors and also with the one of EMT.
I did not reach such an exact and precise alignment than with the UNI-Pro. When I switched between Baerwald IEC and (for Monos) Baerwald DIN and back again to EMT you only have to check if you have put the Micrometer screw again on the right position.
best & fun only - Thuchan |
The P2S addition makes the UNI-protractor really universal. It took a while Dertonearm! but the solution you finally came out with is just a sensation - I usally don`t use such extrem words.
I was always trying to build something by myself - you will remember. Oh my god! Really good things may take a while! I tried it on my TTs and arms and it is such an easy job using all different tonearm inlays while adjusting tonearm length and exact needle point on the spot by 4 digit precision.
Well Done!
As I am also an "image guy" I put one onto my page.
best & fun only |
