Turntable or go into SACD, Simon Yorke vs EMM Lab

Hi Cello,

Thanks for your response which I think adds further clarity to the direction that Dgad should take and possibly the direction Dgad should not take ie. DVD-a.

If you walk in to any well stocked music store in the U.S., stocked well in Classical & Other music & go to the new format section and compare the titles available on the two formats you will clearly see an emerging trend:

1.SACD - mostly classical, new PURE DSD recordings, archived classical & archived modern artists.

2.DVD - mostly new mainstream commercial recordings and opera w/visiual.

Yes, so If your priority is Classical / small accoustic ensembles and want the largerst choice and highest chance of getting the least processed version of that musical event then SACD and particularly PURE DSD versions are your best bet.

I am not looking at DVD-A because, at 48, I am looking for the best versions of the classical stereo recordings of the last 40 years & Re-masterd Hi res re-issues of my favourite mainstream artists of the last 40 years...artists like Peter gabriel , Eric Clapton etc...who the record labels have been archiving to DSD since 1999.

So, to an extent the decision for anyone, on which way to go at this particular time is very much dependent on both the genre of music you are interested in & your age group.

YOUNG/ NON audiophile - MP3 / CD
MIDDLE AGED / knows what accoustic music sounds like - DSD

I agree with Cello in just about everything, ie. keep you vinyl and enhance you CD collection preferably with re-masters / HYBRIDS.

However, rather than investing in improving Dgads already good vinyl reproduction say 10%, Dgad should go Meitner and thereby elevate Dgad's entire CD library by a far higher percentage...

Dgad & I have heard the magic that the Meitner and their Proprietary digital transport can achieve on CD & SACD...

The situation is somwhat similar to when CD came out in 1982... Since 1982, the market arguably, has got some of the finest Vinyl replay equipment ever as the popularity of the format was fading.

Likewise Meitner, in converting Red book CD to DSD has a piece of hardware which can elevate your entire CD library AND AT THE SAME TIME GET YOU INTO THE PUREST OF THE CURRENT HI-RES FORMATS....go listen & you will beleive!!

There is no denying, the future in all aspests of audio & video communication is digital..and what a wonderfull thing it is when done right...pity we had to wait over 20 years for CD.

It would be interesting to hear from Dgad (who posted the question) now thinks and specifically where to invest now.

yours in music

ceol

I suggest you upgrade your Audio Aero for a Meitner DCC2...

My synopsis of you situation is as follows:

1. vinyl - quite happy
2. CD - only OK
3. SACD - impressed with what you heard on Meitner.
4. Software - mainly vinyl.

Before going to the Meitner, I auditioned Audio Aero, Wadia 861SE, Electocompaniet and many other,but none of them came close to the magic that Meitner achieves on regular CD !!!

Following many audio society sessions, the Meitner remains well ahead of the pack on both CD & SACD...and always amazes members on CD...

I bought the Meitner solely on how much it elevated plain old red book CD...for me SACD was the bonus !!

Beleive me pure DCS recordings ie. microphone straight to the DSD recorder rival the finest golden era living voice etc. recordings from the Early 60's.

Most users dont realize that the Meitner converts Red book CD to DSD and in the process removes many of the negative artifacts introduced by the anti-aliasing filters(aka Brick wall filters) used to make CD's.

Instead of buying old & expensive old vinyl, I now achieve tremendous satisfaction from more recent CD re-issues of the early 60's living voice recordings and EMI classis re-mastered using EMI's art process.

Another huge bonus of the DCC2 is that it allows you to eliminate a pre-amp & un-necessary interconnects...remember less is more in the analog domain.

Personally I cashed out a BAT D5se, BAT 51SE and valhalla interconnects and put SACD in my system and money in my pocket!!

If you are nervous of spending 7k on the Proprietatry Meitner SACD transport, I suggest you buy an in-expensive SACD player and feed it to the DCC2 as an auxiliary input.

Consensus in our audio society is that a relatively small investment in the inherently higher resolution SACD format will easily surpass megabuck red book players.

Finally, as regards software, I suggest you buy Hybrid SACD's only.

I hope this helps.

Cello,

I completely agree that a good TT set-up will surpass any CD, this is primarily due to the brick wall anti-aliasing filters that all PCM (including durrent DVD-a) recordings must go thru.

However, I cannot agree with you on DSD and here is why..PURE DCS recordings ..emphasis on PURE ie. straight from microphone to recorder (and not convnered to PCM for editing / mixing) are our modern day equivalent of the vinyl Direct to Disc recordings...no mixing desks ..no anti-aliasing filters...basically the DSD processor looks at the audio signal 2.? something million times a second and determines dit the amplitude increase/decrease of stay the same.

Knowing the inherent problems with all Anti-alising filters in PCM.. a bunch of purest engineers set out on the absolute best way to archive the deteriotaing Master tapes of the last centuary and this was an ingenious solution!!

The situation we have now is most of the treasures captured in analog format over the last centuary are now archived in DSD...the best copy you will ever get of these treasures is a pure DSD copy.

Of course the downside of DSD from the Professionals point of view is you cant manipulte it in the DSD domain and most studios manipulate music in PCM... So basically PCM recordings (CD / DVD-a) are the equivalent of your typical mixed down recordings with the typical artifacts of the multiple layers of processing the signal had to go thru.

So if your prioroties are 'documentary style' recordings .. for classical or small ensambles PURE DSD is you best bet and if at some stage you want to hear the modern day eqivalent of a vinyl direct ot disc then again PURE DSD is your best bet.

If you have read my insight on this topic you will understand that the wonders of the straight direct to disc vinyl recordings we cherished ( and were only available in limited numbers) are now available to everyone in the the form of PURE DSD.

Before you knock this insight go hear a well made PURE DSD thru a Meitner and you will beleive!!!

My suggestion to the original question stands...

Upgrade you CD library by getting a Meitner DCC2...and ultimatly upgrade to the Propietary link (which will get the best out of both CD and DSD)when you are comfortable with the fact that PURE DSD recordings are in fact modern day equivalents to the direct of disk LP.

Feel free to contact me directly...

my id is 'ceol'..gaelic for music !!

Hi Robm321,

I am an Electronics Engineer with over 25 years insight into professional recording, I fear my technical insight may be a liitle beyond most non-engineers but I will try and clarify / justify my advise on the original question which was shoud 'I get into SACD or continue to invest in LP '....

I think you did not quite understand my technical insight or appreciate the enormity of the reality of direct to disk or PURE DSD recordings in the DSD format...read again and understand that.

1. All PCM recordings, because of the Nyquist criteria must be filtered at less than twice the sampling rate. All anti-aliasing filters introduce colorations.just like any pair of glasses you put on no matter how good..it just depends on how audible they are...they are very audible on CD but much less so on DVD-a..some people in professional circles feel you need to go to 192k in DVD-a to really make them in-audible.

Some of the most respected engineers , Tony Faulkner for example despise Anti-aliasing filters and does not use them at all on his LSO live label which he masters His thinking is there is so little info above 22.05 k that tryning to remove it does more harm than good...based on the sonic quality of his CD's I think he is right.

2.PURE DSD is not hype..knowing the inherent colorations of all anti-aliasing filters the engineers at the end of the last centuary were faced with a dilema of archiving degrading 2/3 channel analog master tapes as faithfully as possible...they were driven by the technical challenge to archive them as best as possible, not to create a new format to upset everyone.

DSD ( DIRECT STREAM DIGITAL .. the format name says a lot)was technically the best solution. They could have chosen PCM but realised after 20 years of PCM they still had the inherent colorations of Anti-aliasing filters and chose to avoid them all together...I applaud their courage & purist dedication to soving the problem staring them in the face.

3.DVD-a is a quantum leap in PCM & is arguably what CD should have been from day 1..however they did not have the technology back then...neither the HI-res DAC's, High sampling rates and in particular the technology to fit over 700 Mb on a CD.

CD made some gross compromises...

a. They assumed no audio info above 22.05 k.

b. They allowed a non-stndard Anti_aliasing filter (aka Brick wall filter) which introduced phase anomolies in the upper HF audio band which were audible but impossible to mirror immage out as the vinyl RIAA curve did...this is why Vinyl inherently sounds more natural than any CD.

I go to classical concerts every two weeks & have a good reference point...I applaud the hybrid SACD which allows us to play CD in the car etc. & then read the higher res layer in our domestic systems..I also applaud them being able to do all this for just a few dollars on the cost of the CD.
DVD initially did not offer this and are playing catch-up now.

I truly did not want this tread to get Hi-jacked into a Format argument, I simply wanted to pass on a clearer insight into the parallels between PURE DSD and direct to disk LP's which we know and cherish so much as vinyl lovers.

Clearly, Dgad who asked for the advise realised he / she was hearing a technical break thru on hearing the Meitner...perhaps now understaning the technical hoops that all PCM recordings must go thru and that Meitner equipment is used in making over 90% of all PURE DSD's) Dgad will now have better insight as to which way to go.

Finally, I consider it historic that after 100 years in audio we can now have at home the equipment used to make the original recording & I applaud Ed Meitgner for making his purest studio equipment available to the audiophile public at such a reasonable cost.

Regards,

Ceol .. which is Gaelic for Music !!

Hi Fbhifi,

Athough Dgad has made their decision NOT to upgrade their CD replay this has indeed been a highly informative thread.

You nailed it when you said 'THE MEITNER RIG TOTALLY RE-VITALISED MY CD COLLECTION'...this was precisely the point I was trying to make earlier in the Thread.

I stumbled upon the Meitner equipment in Jonathan Tinns (contactable at info@chambersaudio.com) Tenor / Kharma room at the June 2003 Stereophile show in SFO.

I had never heard of Meitner and had no pre-conceptions
..however after just a few seconds into an old Van Cliburn solo piano CD I knew I was listing to a breakthru in digital re-play...I know what a real Steinway sound like.

I ordered the Meitner solely on how it rendered CD.
In fact, I didnt hear a single SACD until I got my unit in January 2004 ...for me SACD and the discovery of PURE DSD and its parallel to Direct to Disc Vinyl was the icing on the cake !!

My contibution to this thread is not to knock Vinyl...I love it and still have an extensive collection...I was simply trying to point out two things.

1. The Meitner will uplift a CD collection beyound your wildest expectations...demonstrably close to vinyl.

2. Digital audio is not all bad & not descending to MP3...

Just as HDTV is raising the bar in video / TV we should applaud and support both DVD-a and SACD for raising the bar on digital audio re-production.

Finally, dont knock what myself & Fbhifi are saying if you have not heard the Meitner rig in a truly revealing system.

A Meitnerised Philips SACD 1000 at $2k and Meitner DCC2 at just under 10k is both sonically better & cheaper than any top drawer CD/SACD player combo with conventional Pre-amp and interconnects...

Several audio associates of mine are changing over to this simpler & sonically superior solution & putting money in their pockets !!

This I think will be my last post on this thread..

If anyone wishes to view my simple 'less is more' system they can do so on audiogon...

If anyone wishes to E-mail me directly you are most welcome.

Yours in Music

Ceol