Tubes vs. solid state.

Just to chime in here. I believe that tubes vs solid state is a matter of budget and price point. Low level solid state amps sound bright if not designed and constructed correctly. Low level tube amps sound warm, until you realize that something is wrong with the sound also. But, top of the line amps, either solid state or tube? I'll tell you seriously. I have listened to top of the line amps and I'll take either. Audio Research Reference 610 amps vs Boulder top of the line? Can't pick. They both sound wonderful. I listened to Krell amps for a time and still find them too bright. Switched pre-amps and still bright. Switched amps, to a Mark Levinson amp and brightness went away. Here is what I have learned over the years. If you stop listening and don't know why, something is driving you away from your system. But, if you can't wait to turn it on and listen for hours, then it is just fine.

enjoy

I have played classical violin for years, listened to live unapplified music and applified music. Jazz, Rock, R&B, classical, etc. One first must have a good idea what the music is suppose to sound like, and even then, you don't know how it was recorded, the mikes, setup, equipment, patch boards, etc. There are so many ways to screw up a recording. I switched a while ago to an Audio Research REF 3 Pre-amp from an Audio Research SP-11. The SP-11 retubed was wonderful. The REF 3 is magic. The SP-11 was very forgiving of bad recordings. Great music, but bad recordings. The REF 3 didn't forgive anything. Many of my older CD's sound like crap now. But, the better recorded CD's are absolutely wonderful. go figure. I run an Sota Saphire TT, with SME IV arm and Blackbird cartridge, into a Audio Research Phono Stage, then to the REF 3, then to AR VTM 120 monos for the upper panels of my speakers and also to a wonderful Mark Levinson ML3 Amp for the bass drivers, all driven through an electronic crossover, which I just bought replacing my passive crossovers. So, as you can see, I am going from tubed pre-amp, to a solid state crossover, to tubed amps and a solid state bass amp. No way do I now have tube sound exclusively or SS exclusively. My point is do whatever you can to get realistic reproduction of the electronic signal and again, if you can sit for hours listening without fatigue and not feel as if something is wrong or missing, then you are there. Or pretty close.

It is great reading your posts, you people know your stuff. Enjoy

Amazing and very interesting discussion. Please keep in mind that there are several lines of thought regarding amplifier design. 1) the amplifier is designed to drive specific loads, 2) look like an open circuit (impedance wise) so that it does not load down other electronics feeding it or 3) is specifically designed to accurately reproduce and amplify the input signal. If you design an amplifier to accurately reproduce and amplify the input signal without taking into account what loads it must drive, it will oscillate, blow up or just not work correctly. There is a difficult engineering dance that engineers must adhere to in amplifier design and also, compromises that must be taken in any amplifier design. The point that I was trying to make earlier and in other posts is that one must know what instruments and vocals really sound like first in order to understand if the equipment is designed correctly and working correctly. If it sounds as if you are listening to speakers, then, something is wrong. If you can't tell where the artist are on the stage, how deep the stage is etc. then either something is wrong or the music was recorded badly and maybe there wasn't a stage at all or instruments, but electronic instruments only. You never know what was recorded and how. It is hard to judge. I am not an advocate of classical, live unamplified, amplified, jazz, rock, etc. I love any music that is good. However, understand that most kids have no clue that they are listening to drum machines, electronic instruments instead of real instruments, etc. So, when they hear your system, they may not appreciate it because they have a bad point of reference to begin with. A short story. years ago, I took my daughter to a concert to hear (see) Roberta Flack. Outstanding in person, recordings, don't sound nearly as good as live. you could hear deep sighs and breaths and gasps from the crowd as she played piano and sang. That is when my yound daughter learned what signing really was. Remember, we are constantly trying to reproduce something that was recorded. 1) was the recording done correctly? 2) the mixing? 3) was the replay equipment and cables designed and build correctly? All of these inpact the ultimate sound. Did the artist step out of your speakers and can you see the room, instruments and maybe her face? if so, you are there. If not, then we aren't there yet. But, you got to admit, it is fun getting there.

Enjoy

I'm sorry. Who is Ralph? I would like to read his papers on the subject. Thanks,
To touch on a subject mentioned earlier. as long as we are using solid state/tube devices, wires, capacitors, inductors, etc. we will have propagation delay, distortion, losses, etc. I wish I was a smarter Engineer, I would go the star trek approach and things would be perfect. Using light as the signal, recording and playback media would probably be better. Digital is always flawed, although much better now, because it cuts an analog signal into pieces and then tries to piece it back together again. Sound is analog in nature. Eliminate the distortion, additions, and losses and you are there. I wonder where we will be 100 years from now? Quite honestly, we really haven't changed much in decades in amp design. Yes, the amps are actually built better. The transformers, capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. are better. and the transistors are much better, more linear. Tubes? wow! I'm not sure if they are better or not. but amps? you still have input stage, high impedance, differential inputs, cascode, current mirrors, voltage gain, current gain, output drivers, etc. Bias control has gotten much better, and current sources are creative and better, but my point is like an automobile, what has changed? it is still an internal combustion machine that drives axles and wheels. Like I said, I wish I was smarter. I am absolutely cerain that Nelson Pass can design and build high quality tube amps also. A good Engineer is a good Engineer. He just choose to go the solid state route. Same for good tube amp designers. They can do just as well with solid state. They found their nitch(?) and went with it. However, to get to the level where you really listen to music instead of as background music is tough without spending an amazing amount of money. That is why used equipment sales are going strong. I'll take a Mark Levinson older amp Ml3, Ml2, Ml23.5, etc. any day. Threshold amps (replace the pre-drivers and output drivers with more linear transistors and wow!), Audio Research, etc. My point? This older equipment is wonderful! The good thing about a good Engineer like Pass, is that they can explain the difficult subjects clearly make it down to earth. There are many out there. I love reading their stuff.

Again, Enjoy

Enjoy

Never say never. I have auditioned some very nice equipment, tube and solid state and I can tell you in my humble opinion, that one typically becomes comfortable with certain sound and distortions. The amps are not reproducing the electronic signal 100% perfectly. They are designed to produce a particular sound. But, I have heard the top of the line Audio Research amps, Mark Levinson and Boulder to name a few and I would take anyone anytime. The Boulder Pre and power amp through top Wilson speakers matched or beat anything I have heard before. Tube or otherwise. It was simply wonderful. The Audio Research REF 610T, same. for some reason, the Krells are still too bright to me, can't say why. But, never say never. It comes down to when you hear the real thing and know it, it doesn't matter if it is tube or not. However, some people are solid state religious or tube religious and won't hear about anything else period. I care about the music (and my budget). enjoy the music. life is short. enjoy