My Cayin is A88T version 1, which has 16 ohm taps for my 16 ohm speakers.
It has no external bias adjuster, no bias meter, and no switch for tube type.
Later versions drop 16 ohm tap, add external bias and bias meter.
So, it’s bottom off, multi-meter alligator clips, screw driver, ON, electrocution or success! |
oldhvymec no need to LOL about same gear forever, much of my setup is ’old vintage’. The 47 years begin in 1973 when I inherited my uncle’s Fisher President II console. My OMG moment, the awareness of high quality sound. All components made in 1958 still work. It’s Fisher Mono Amps, 80Z: the transformers seem indestructible, I bought a spare on eBay just in case. I used original EL37’s, EL34’s, 5881’s I think, a 4th type I seem to remember. All legit substitutes, bias never adjusted. Over the years, I found a few burnt resistors, replaced them. Had them checked by pros just because they are so old, a few innards replaced, nothing really. They still are dead quiet (so quiet I left them on many times) and sound great, but for convenience I got the current Cayin A88T (1st and only Cayin), Liked it equally, and wanted to hear difference of it’s optional Triode/Ultra-Linear modes. And KT88’s for the first time. Goodbye Triode. Fishers ready if disaster strikes current gear. The receivers: two Fisher 500C (1964 to ?) and Fisher 800C all sound great. 7591’s, perhaps I tried substitutes, I can’t remember. Bill has the 800C (500C with AM added) we traded for his Mitsubishi Vertical TT LV-5V. Sherwood I gave to a friend who collects Sherwood’s. Dynaco Preamp I sold, just because it was ugly IMO. current McIntosh tube tuner/preamp mx110z (1962-1969), best purchase ever! Love it’s tuner and phono. Dead quiet up to 12 o’clock vol, I leave it at 10 o’clock, Cayin at 12 oclock, use my Chase Remote Line Controller for remote increased volume, and it’s automatic Fletcher Munson Loudness progressively engaged when lowered from it’s startup vol. level. (you need to find the correct interactive Chase/McIntosh/Cayin mix so normal listening starts at Chase factory start up level), many use it wrong and complain about it’s auto loudness, used properly it’s a great feature to retain involvement at low listening levels. I digress. Current speakers are new custom enclosures with all the drivers from the Fisher console, all made in 1958. Re-coned the 15" woofers twice, once pro, once myself, gonna check em soon just to verify they are ok. So, that’s all the stuff I never biased, the current issue is the internal bias controls of the Cayin. |
Thanks Bill,
I've been asking this because I knew that, thanks for sending me the instructions.
Working inside, plugged in, serious warnings: You know I love to do it myself, but not this, at least not until I see it done by someone who lives to explain what not to touch!
Steve at VAS will do it while I wait/watch, so I'll schedule something when you and I can get together to go there. |
millercarbon
thanks for providing that understanding, big help just knowing 'why' bias exists. Is it fair to say, if it sounds great, don't mess with it, or why bother as some suggest? As for 'right or wrong', 'better or worse' how do you know unless you have a problem, or a problem/change presents itself? Up to now, those same 47 years, my friends and I: any and all of my tube stuff has always been preferable to SS (darn good SS) with 'middle of the adjuster' settings. |
lewm
thanks for taking the time to respond with all that information.
Sonically, what are your experiences? |
bdp24
thanks for the reference, I'll search for his name, his recommendations. Any personal experiences? |
Everyone,
Thanks for the help as always,
I know how to do it, what the proper setting is.
These Cayins have high quality ceramic tube sockets, they are very tight. They are surprisingly beautifully made with high quality components, far beyond my old experiences of 'made in China'. I highly recommend them.
It sounds great, I don’t have any issue, except I changed from 6550’s to KT88’s, I thought, it’s time to learn. Electrocution warnings are the only thing holding me back.
........................
I don’t care about heat or tube life.
My questions were:
What are the benefits of proper settings (every 6 months) and what are the potential problems if simply ignored, (as I have done for 47 years)?
If the adjusters are simply set in the middle of their rotation, as I always do, and the thing sounds great, should I risk electrocution? |
How about a long carbon fiber tube screwdriver!!!
I'm gonna find something long enough n my shop, use my grinder to make a screwdriver tip, have at it. |
tomic601
this mx110z is the best purchase I ever made, chosen based on this review http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue77/vintage_mcintosh_experience.htmIf it died, I would instantly buy another without considering anything else.
The mx110z has gone up in price a good bit since I bought mine 1-1/2 years ago. ............................. this is just a long winded story now, nothing to do with bias. The mx110z tuner: Richard Modafferi is quoted as saying something like "there is nothing I can do to improve it". https://www.audioclassics.com/modsI have a lot of respect for him, I met him once, very friendly. I bought his JSE Infinite Slope Model II speakers when he was in business making them himself. They had his two patents. Joseph Audio still uses his infinite slope crossover in a few models. The most accurate speakers I ever owned, the only ones I ever wanted after going to many NYC audio shows. Instantly wanted them! I got lucky, my friend Phil at Leonard Radio, ground floor of my building on 44th street (former Hammond Organ Showroom) knew I loved them. He told me senior salesman Ray had taken in a pair on trade with burnt tweeters for $700. (new $5k a pair then). Phil and I ganged up on Ray, reminded him I had given them some good advice when they were planning their renovation (I'm an Interior Designer, more like Interior Architect, specialized in Corporate Headquarters). Ray says "I'm gonna replace those tweeters and sell them for a lot of money! I said, no, I'm gonna replace those tweeters and keep em. Phil pushed him, he finally agreed. I rolled those suckers out, up the elevator, hid them in the AC room in case he changed his mind, got em home that weekend. Now, what the heck to do with the big boys downstairs? I say to Donna, the attic is too hot/cold; the crawl space too damp; they wont fit through your mothers cellar door. Donna says, "what about the bedroom, I love those speakers". OMG, I love you!!! Those JSE's instantly took over Harvey's on 45th street. Until they didn't.
I don't know this personally, and still have utmost respect for Richard Modafferi.
My friend Wayne, who sold a lot of them, told me JSE's mistake was making the enclosures himself, he could not keep delivery schedules, delays so bad, wealthy customers mad, Harvey's dropped them. After years of them, using McIntosh SS MC2250, I decided to give the JSE's to my son and go back to tube amps, the Fisher 80z's and the big boys I use currently. Still using McIntosh SS C28 Preamp. Back to LP, I was not happy with C28's phono, I actually preferred the one built into the AT120TT I had. Had McIntosh Factory check/restore it, still preferred the AT120. I decided to get a tube preamp, researched, found the mx110z which includes a tube tuner. Existing Carver Tuner was terrific but the mx110z tuner just sounds so involving. Carver Tuner is now in my office with the Carver Cube. I got both from Harvey's used shelf. Wayne called me when he knew a trade in piece was coming out of the service dept. mx110z Phono: Wonderful, I can't imagine even thinking something might sound better. |
twoleftears
Thanks, that is the factory manual which I have, no mention of bias at all.
I found a discussion from audiogon member plangco, says ,4; he uses .35 for longer life and warmer sound.
It is his "the voltages can be lethal" that gives me late life cowardice.
That, and the very old but unforgettable memory of being kicked on my assss by a tv I had just unplugged. I replaced the cheap internal speaker with a better external one. That's when I realized, there has always been the potential of better sound out of TV signals. |
jjss49
I should have answered you earlier, A88T, original version (they don't call it mk1). It has internal bias adjusters, and it is the only version that has 4/8/16 ohm taps for my 16 ohm speakers. Newer versions eliminated the 16 ohm tap, and added convenient and safe external bias meter and adjuster. |
Bill discovered this, near me, it's Toyland to him Greenbrook Electronics, filled with vintage as well as new stuff! https://www.greenbrookelectronics.com/
I'll be standing on an AstroTurf rug I have at my workbench, nearly 2" thick plastic and rubber, concrete below. OFF; no inputs; multi tester connections; ON; 20 min warm up; long plastic tool. OFF, disconnect. Speakers connected? |
How about I make myself a long wooden stick/screwdriver instead of plastic. Wood safe? |
Well now,
I like the KT88’s more than the 6550’s, difference was obvious, as obvious as switching from Triod mode to preferrable ultra-linear mode.
I assumed all the difference was entirely in the tubes.
Seller told me he had it’s bias adjusted just a few months prior.
Now I’m thinking, it is possible seller had it biased for KT88’s, kept them, put factory 6550’s in, shipped to me.
IOW, I just got lucky, and the bias was part of the improvement. |
jjss49 Thanks for the info and link. In my shop, I’ve got some nice chopsticks, one set hardwood, another set plastic, if I can find them. And a grinder, and lots of other sharp weapons of destruction. I know where to make the connections, evicently going for .4 or a bit less. Multi-meter on what setting???? |
oldhvymec
I'm betting it changes nothing, but, I'm gonna do it, just to find out. |
tyray
My JSE's are at my son's house, I have gone back to my vintage drivers in a custom Rosewood Enclosure. (3 way: horn tweeter, horn mid, 15" woofer, from 1958) My setup, those speakers, and TT with 3 arms can be seen in the photos of this LP listing on eBay. The Reel to Reel is horizontal, under a tray of plants. The tray relocates onto the TT when playing Tapes, back for LP's https://www.ebay.com/itm/133612076659I wanted more power for the JSE's, and a friend gave me a SS McIntosh MC2250 and C28 he wasn't using. Damn good no doubt, Amp, full on, dead quiet, tested 305 wpc by McIntosh, it simply wasn't there, just did it's job, perfectly. I did not like the phono stage in the C28. As I said, I just got lucky finding the article about the mx110z, then found one, the best purchase ever. When I went back to my horn speakers, hardly any power needed, it was back to tubes, always my preference. Simply put, this setup I have now gives me and the wifey, (and my friends with masks) a great deal of listening pleasure, especially having rediscovered LP's and investing in improved TT setup. The Turntable, 3 tonearms, developed piece by piece, finished very well, way beyond what I started out to do (single long arm). I don't have a lot of space, 3 arms on 1 deck, select via SUT, mix long arm MC, normal arm MM, compact arm MONO, change instantly in a listening session is absolutely wonderful. That preamp's tuner and phono stage are simply wonderful. "Go West Young Man, Go Tubes". Elliott you can find a 500c, or an 800c on eBay, do you really want AM? that's the only difference between the 500C and the 800C here's one way to save a lot of $ https://www.ebay.com/itm/Limited-Fisher-800C-Tube-Stereo-Receiver-Enamel-Pins-Limited/133532044574?h... |
I’m not using my tone controls, but I like having them, you never know. Actually my Chase Remote Line Control has remote treble and bass, again, I don’t use them. I use the remote balance occasionally, would hate to be without it.
Don’t forget the advantages of the McIntosh Mode switch, balance control, and optional Loudness, which if understood/used properly can maintain involvement at low levels, for me primarily keeping jazz bassists heard.
My Chase unit has automatic ’loudness’, again, it’s volume has to be properly coordinated with the preamp and amp to avoid misuse.
the platitudes: no separates; no tone controls; are mostly platitudes IMO. |
oldhvymec
It's hard to adjust bias with vision problems they tell me. |
lewm,
I don't recall indicating surprise modern preamps do not have FM. Few have them now, and anyone can stream FM online. I don't stream digital in my music system, and don't listen to FM in the home theater.
Many/most young people never heard excellent FM quality, including many of my audiophile friends. I'm old enough to remember when FM first appeared in cars, gradually replacing those AM radios.
I used to use Carver FM (another used find at Harvey's, amazing reception capability), and now only listen to 1 station, WBGO Jazz, my designated FM antenna in the attic pointed at their broadcast antenna. This FM is every bit as good as they say. Much more involving sound than the Carver (on a shelf, resale value about $15).
I used tone controls when in college, Fisher 200T receiver, and a pair of AR2x's. Also knew how to properly use Loudness Control, low volume while pulling many all-nighter's listening to Allison Steele, the Nightbird, or Cousin Brucie while the wife and baby slept.
Now I have my L-pads on my speakers, I have never used tone controls since, however I would want them just in case.
I adjust balance, and benefit when a track needs it, prior to Chase Remote Balance it was a walk up, back, up, back, start the track over, PITA, in any case I always want balance. Using Mono Blocks, with individual manual volume pots on lower shelf was not fun. I used to run Onkyo CD with 2 sets outputs, 1 with volume control, direct to amp to speakers
I have had 'skip the controls' preamp and the current Cayin has 'preamp bypass', skipping it's volume control. I never hear a difference, always go for convenience.
Tone controls, filters, ... can get noisy, I am very good at getting to them and properly cleaning them to their original noise free state.
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sokogear
Tubes can be a lot of fuss, IF you are a very fussy person, which I am not. Therefore, for 43 years they have been easy, and I have heard and prefer tubes over SS. Easy.
As I mentioned in the original post, I simply spray the controls, swish em around put em in the middle, listen. Never bothered with bias.
Make it easier on yourself. To avoid a lot of unknows, I bought, and advise buying a simple tube tester, which you might think fussy, but I like knowing rather than guessing the condition of existing and newly purchased tubes. I always do an annual pre-holiday tube check prior to Thanksgiving. Over the years, a few developed shorts, a few have died, a few have gotten weak. Easy to find and replace with a simple tester.
Over the years I have gotten away with original or substitute tubes 'of the same performance', probably why I have gotten away with plug and play.
This time, I changed types, 6550's to KT88's. It is recommended to change the bias when you change those in my amp.
I didn't bother, the difference is easy to hear, I prefer the KT88's.
Sooo, I asked: how important is bias really? If they sounded better, might they sound even better?
If I was buying a tube amp, I would prefer external bias, safer than needing to go inside mine, yet I am limited in choice by wanting 16 ohm taps on the transformer. |
Couldn't have been, it was easy to understand! |
@sokogear
You are defending SS, great. You ought to start a new thread about 'tubes are too fussy ...'.
I and many others prefer tube sound quality, I find tubes more involving. After many years, I sum it up as simply this: analog gets both the fundamentals and overtones 'right'.
If you want to know what other people love about tubes, it ain't words, go listen. Many have listened, heard differences, and prefer SS. Many love inefficient speakers and need SS to get enough power. That's it, except, you have implied I shouldn't consider myself an audiophile, because I am not fussy enough to achieve audiophile sound quality.
I have achieved, with fun not fuss, over many years, excellent sound quality. Primarily from Vintage gear. I believe, if you came here you would love the sound of my system. I've had excellent SS gear here.
Let's be clear, fussy people enjoy being fussy, it's part of their enjoyment.
Yes tubes are more fussy than SS. I am trying to tell you, if you hear and want tubes, don't fear, tubes don't need to be too fussy. And, if you are tempted by tubes after hearing them, I believe any person with tube gear: owning a simple tube tester is part of having confidence with tubes. If you leave your SS on all the time, IMO you 'drank the koolaid'.
Tubes need break in when new, say 60 hours, after that, me: on just a few minutes before use. I don't spray tubes, I spray the controls, moving parts with electrical contacts within vintage equipment using contact cleaner and lubricant. That's inherent with vintage equipment, not fussy, regular maintenance. SS doesn't need maintenance? I had to clean the controls of my McIntosh SS Preamp and SS Amp. Newer stuff, perhaps not.
Take great vintage stuff apart, see the thin wires, the 'good enough' parts, nowhere near the current 'audiophile' quality parts, yet those wires and parts is what made that company's reputation.
I'm not criticizing others, but for myself: What I hear: the difference between speakers, between the interaction of the space with those speakers. And excellent engineering of source material. Better TT (up to a point), cartridges. I hear the difference between formats, LP and Tape, higher noise specs, surprising to many, always besting CD here, and Tubes always preferred to SS when compared here. Other than that, I'd rather buy more music than chase minute improvements, fussy improvements if you will. I have a dedicated circuit for my preamp and amp. Everything else, CD, R2R, Cassette, 8 Track my Chase unit on a regular household circuit. Only one source device is on at a time. NO: power conditioners, monster power cords, super fuses, directional interconnects, pure silver ... contact fluid on rca jacks, source equipment with external power supplies, weights on my cd player, bejeweled speaker cables, or trusses off the floor. Just 'good enough' quality equipment, via tubes to with very revealing speakers luckily in a listening space great for them. I have a good friend with all of the above. He loves my system. We have brought much of his stuff over here, bit by bit, he has to admit, we don't hear a difference. I watch him search for 'better' for many years, frankly he needs a better space, and his speakers are terrific but too narrow dispersion and lack bass. Fixed on spikes (that I gave him), terrific imaging only for center spot. Minimum controls, minimum interconnects, no tone controls, ....
Once, only once that I remember, way back when, a group of golden eared reviewers finally agreed to a blind listening test. Between a Pioneer Receiver and high end separates, the 'best' of the day. Statistically, the answers were random, no discernable difference could be identified. Once I got an interesting woofer at a garage sale, holes and tears in the cone. Just for fun I slapped some scotch tape on it, it sounded surprisingly good. Finally learned Einstein's theory of relativity. |
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oldhvymec1,917 posts12-28-2020 6:36pmhttps://www.pinoydvd.com/index.php?topic=139769.0
OP check this thread out pretty good, pics in all...
........................... thanks, finally had a look today. Preamp Connected??? "amp should be connected to your preamp but volume is turned fully down ( NO signal applied to the amp )."
jomarRe: Cayin A88t - Biasing
I owned previously a A88T amp below are the biasing procedures. Please take note that the amp has HIGH voltages thus extra care should be taken.
1. Open bottom cover to have an access on the Test Point ( TP ) and Variable Trim pots (VR) .
2. Speakers should be connected and amp should be connected to your preamp but volume is turned fully down ( NO signal applied to the amp ).
3. Turn-ON power amp for about 10 minutes to warm-up tubes.
4. Attached positive ( Red ) probe of DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to Test Point . Negative probe of DVM to GROUND.
4. Adjust the VR which corresponds to the tube being biased to get 0.4Volts (400mV) reading
*** VR1 for V5 , VR2 for V6, VR3 for V7 and VR4 for V8
5. Verify reading after 30 mins to finetune .
6. Power OFF amp and put back bottom cover
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vegasears
Auto biasing amps, worth every penny! I wish my Cayin had it, alas, adjusters within. I got hooked on the reviews of the Cayin, they have auto-bias on mark 2,3 but my speakers are 16 ohm, only mark 1 has 16 ohm and it’s bias controls are inside. Seller had it biased just prior to sale to me, however that was for it’s 6550’s. I tried KT88’s for the first time, much prefer them, and .... of course I should bias them. I’m a DIY, but the words ’lethal’ ’death’ ... gave me lockstep. Made myself a nice long screwdriver out of a hardwood chopstick, dusted off 30 year old multimeter: new batteries, clean moving parts, pots, contacts, then realized, I never used this multimeter, I don’t understand this stuff. I even found it’s 30 year old manual in my ’instructions’ folder in the basement. I feel I’m all dressed up, nowhere to go. |
lewm
now I see what you were referring to re 'surprised'. but this was a quote found and pasted by another poster, not me.
"Like me, after living with the MX110Z for a while, you may wonder why all modern preamplifiers don’t include FM tuners and equalization controls—they’re great fun! Also, tell me, is there anything even remotely comparable to the vacuum tubed McIntosh MX110Z currently available today at any price? No, which is a pity."
Price: I don't know when that was written, I got lucky, the mx110z has increased in price over the last year.
A tube tuner/preamp with tuner and phono only would be cool, no need for so many inputs as the integrated amps have them. Gotta have remote volume and remote balance on the integrated so that's available to all sources. |
vegasears1,073 posts01-10-2021 2:01pm
not Auto Biasing so I feel your pain!
Not feeling pain is what this is all about!!!
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tyray
I just bought that used McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp in June 2019, a purchase of love but not a long held piece. I sold my McIntosh SS Preamp C28 and McIntosh SS2250 to switch back to tubes.
I have avoided upgrades fairly well, primarily because I have been lucky to both inherit great stuff and been given some great stuff. I have given a lot of stuff to others as well. Met Bill here last year, we swapped my Fisher 800C receiver for his Mitsubishi Vertical TT, LT-5V which I revived and plays in my office system now.
I designed Corporate Offices, New Headquarters, Relocations, Renovations, for 47 years: NYC, Phila, Wash DC, Chicago, San Fran, Toronto, hired my own consultants, did everything soup to nuts.
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skypunk
you haven't been paying full attention, I need 16 ohm taps, the only Cayin with 16 ohms is the original version, with internal bias adjusters.
Raven looks nice, but no 16 ohm taps |
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tvad
thanks for the link, that fine looking unit came up in this related thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/16-ohm-speakers-any-amp-sounds-better-with-more-resolution-sp...I'm gonna stick with this amp, and have Steve from VAS do it while I watch, then I will use my long wooden screwdriver and do it myself. Evidently my very old Multi-meter is a good bit less accurate than a digital one, so I will get one of them. The amp sounds awesome, I just wanted to learn how important people thought proper Bias was. As always I have gotten a lot of help here and learned a lot. |
