Thanks for all the advice/tips, lots to think about. I do realize speakers will be key, so im keeping that in mind.
Boa - Ive come to agree with you. My initial budget is limited, initially my logic was to spread about 1k between amp and speakers. I dont think ill be happy with that scenario for long, it most likely will not improve on what I have(like i'd hoped). I chose amp first because my JVC has some issues. The source argument is convincing but I plan on upgrading everything eventually anyway.
Finding Audiogon really opened my eyes for used gear possibilities. Others had pointed at the Stingray, Ive seen them on Audigon @ just over 1k.
Along with the Stingray, Prologues and the Jolida 502B i've seen the Rogue Cronos used for around the same money, the remote volume and phono stage are appealing (Stingray has neither) I know reviews are just reviews, but two I skimmed just now sounded very positive overall, including rock.
Pauly - My guitar amp experience..and lots of it...really parallels with your thoughts. Through the years, ive read the reviews, heard all the talk, played the supposed latest and greatest....and never has SS compared to tube. Never. Its all about feel. Tubes move you SS doesnt. SS amplifies guitar sound, tube amps sing. Not to say I dont trust everyone's opinion....not at all, just my (comparable or not) experience
Marco - thanks for the insight. Im now trying to educate myself on more tech, push-pull, triode, pentode etc. Ive never delved as deep with guitar amplification. Though I have favorite tubes, which would be in order EL 84, EL34, and lastly KT88s and 6L6s, which I find a little harsh and less warm.
Dave - What would be considered "large floorstanders with big woofers"? Im going with floorstanders, most ive looked at are no bigger then 8" woofers. If I recall from Manley with the Stingray they concentrated on a new transformer design specifically for the lower registers.
To be more direct if I was (and I guess I am) trying to decide between the Stingray the Cronus or the Prologue 2, whats the best pick?
The Stingray and Cronus are double the cost(new) of the Prologue(or the Jolida 502B or Onix). Is the sonic improvement a step above?
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Thanks Eagleman...more to ponder....:)
Tvad- "I have noticed more happy Prologue 2 owners than just about any other owners of tube integrated amps in the same price range".
Ive read much the same. With "price range" are you referring to new or used? (honestly I havent seen used Prologues THAT much cheaper than new)
"On the other hand, both the Manley and Rogue amps are made in the USA, if that makes any difference."
Exactly. Is the difference only in price?(because they're USA made) or is there a true quality and sonic difference?
I guess I sort of asked this already....your response helped me refine my thought.
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Marco - BTW thanks for the Klipsch recommendation. I looked them up and im sure one of the two(Chorus or Forte) are the same speakers a buddy of mine had with a Adcom system back around '96 or so. This system was my first exposure to hi-fi. I got to listen to it daily..and yes..the speakers rocked....:) |
My mistake, I thought the Cronus was more comparable to the Stingray at the $2200-2300 range. |
To refresh this post. I ended up going with the Stingray and the Dali Royal towers, ive had them for a year now. Initially I was quite pleased, but over time found myself listening less and less, and each session being shorter and shorter (fatiguing) I like metal and rock, and just feel these arent the components for it, and/or the synergy is not right. The sound is beautiful with smoother softer passages, accoustics, blues and jazz...vocals are actually stunning...really impressive, but when the power chords kick in...its just isnt "there" if that makes sense. That rock guitar punch (mids?) that I crave isnt there and I just want to turn it down.
Ive still got the same CDP. Ive done lots of experimenting mixing it up with my old components and some different players. I just kept coming back to the Singray and/or the Dalis lacking. What do you guys think? Why does my old garage sell JVC receiver and Kenwoods sound 'almost' as good to me? Im still a newb...what am I missing?
(ive set this system up in every room of two different homes, room dynamics don't change what im missing) |
Thanks for the advice At. No..they didnt inspire which does tell me something, but what other than I didnt like them? Would the Stingray rock with a different speaker? Would the Dalis sound better with more power?....lots of variables.
How do you know if an amp is no-feedback design? Something thats published or a certain number on the spec sheet? Is the Stingray?
Im still learning tech stuff, but I was suprised that the dealer touted the Dali Towers so highly, 89db 4ohm speakers. Spec wise...from what I read....they didnt sound like the ideal load for the Stingray.(being a novice..what did I know...u know?)
I would agree if its good for rock it should just be good, but my experience so far would not lead to believe the reverse it true (good for jazz, vocals etc..being good for rock). But maybe your talking an entirely different price point??
So anyway, thanks for the advice, any recommendations? |
I just picked up a Rotel 1062, yes a "downgrade" as I keep being told. But we'll see what it does with my Dalis. |
Appreciate the advice. Its really eating at me just "why" the combo didnt work for me, so that helps...but yet on paper (and ive read the "trust your ears not the specs" advice) it should be a good match. The Stingray is optimized for a 5 ohm load. The Dalis I have are a 4 Ohm, 89db with a very flat impedance(so I was told)
I went back and scoured the net for Stingray reviews and discussion(torturing myself I know..:) and it sounds absolutely perfect for what im looking for....talk about sellers remorse! Even found a review running a 4 ohm, 89db speaker which caught my eye.
Before letting it go and thinking heavily about my problem being a speaker match issue I did some experimenting using it to drive my old '89 era Kenwoods (8ohm, 92db, 140 watt, 12" 3-way floorstanders). Since the Dalis use a smaller driver(5") I was thinking the bass would be much better on the 12" Kenwoods. Though a little less refined it sounded much like it did with the Dalis. It was noticeably louder at a given volume setting but generally the same animal(probably no news to true audiophiles...but a revelation to me) And the punch you hear/read about...well I just didnt hear it, same as the with the Dalis.
It really didnt rock the Kenwoods any better then my old (much cheaper)JVC HT receiver. It was more layered and dimensional, sweeter, but I wouldnt say hugely more dynamic, and certainly not any punchier in the bass dept..actually less so. Crazy to me. My son and I sat for 2 hours with all our favorite metal cds....back and forth between it and the JVC, and in the end we both agreed it was better....but not THAT much better. That night it went on Agon.
(I want to emphasize this was with Metal cds..Megadeth, Iced Earth..to name a few. As I said above I LOVED the Stingray/Dalis with softer stuff, accoustic guitar, jazz, blues, and vocals...wow...really really impressive)
But its killing me to admit it didnt work, I really wanted to like the Stingray. Based on all that I read and heard...and still hear...I just know I must have been missing something...u know?
But anyway, enough crying in my beer..... Im sure the Stingray does things that the Rotel wont, ill post after ive had some time with it driving my Dalis and my Kenwoods. |
Greg, interesting, particularly on sound levels. It certainly was not what i'd consider loud, and trying to make it "rock" only increased fatigue and distortion.
Dave, I have to smile at your post. Past all the technical this or that, my gut has told me the exact same thing....rock speakers, more power. Im guessing...just guessing...the Rotel will be a pit stop...we'll see.
(got any "rock" speaker recommendations?) |
Ive heard the same on foriegn recordings. Wish I could remember the link, bascially had listed in order of quality....something like German, Japanese, American etc. Not sure if there is anything to it. Maybe someone else here will chime in.
I agree about musical enjoyment rather than obsessing over ideal recordings. I have a lot of stuff that is pretty rough. Thats why I like tone/eq controls. |
The Rotel has arrived. First impression...this thing rocks. Snappy is a good word, forward, very clear, but not overly bright.
Only tried it with my Kenwoods (they are closer to the front door..:)) and id say its slightly less dimensional then the stingray, not as sweet on the soft stuff...but its got punch and power, and the bass thumps, the contour switch is very cool. For me...it betters the SR.
One peculiar thing: with my "better" audioquest ICs...its fatiguing. But with the cheap $2 ICs I got in a bargain bin at the local hardware store, its warmer and more lush....maybe they are just less transparent and hiding things...and thats the reason....but I didnt ever expect to prefer them.
We'll see how it goes with the Dalis....more to come... |
Agisthos....ive come to believe your right on hi-fi gear and trust your advice. I did have some metal cds with me at the Rocky Mountain Audio show last year, and the few rooms that obliged me...once I got past the rolled eyes and how "horribly recorded metal cds are" ...well...you said it. I guess the metal hi-fi contingent is small one.
The Rotel/Dalis is a different matter altogether. Its very upfront in presentation, I can see why some may call it bright...but its not harsh. The Dalis are warmish and laid back...so maybe ive stumbled on a great match. Its got power and punch and never sounds as if its straining to keep up. The rhythymic quality is great, it gets your foot tapping and head bobbing, it feels like things are where they are supposed to be if that makes sense. Its very snappy and punchy. The Manley was sluggish by comparsion.
What surprises me is that the Rotel with its more dynamic presentation still retains a smooth and lush quality with the mellower passages of metal, its not the Manley with mellow stuff...less depth....but ill take the trade off anyday.
Im really impressed and much closer to where I want to be. Best of all...NO fatigue...I was up all night...cd after cd...it rocks.
Thanks A....good to hear others know where im coming from. |
I was quoting some reps in the rooms...not me. I dont agree either. I had some very nice sounding cds with me which I was told were thin, overly compressed, etc etc. One dude(me)with some cds...trying to tell a guy with a room full of hi end gear that his equipment wasnt cutting it....well u know.... Wont name names...but it happened more than once.
+1 for Paranoid. My reference cd for years has been Iced Earth Horror Show. Metal with violins, organs, female vocals and much more. Its all over the place. I probably have yet to hear it as it was intended...but im still searching....:)
BTW...Ralph is it? I wandered in your room at the 06 show, had I known your appreciation of Sabbath....i'd have stayed longer...:) |
Wanted to refresh this post on my journey...
Well..Undertow was right...hindsight is fun huh? I ended up selling the Stingray and the Rotel. I happened on a great deal on a brand new Mac 6900. Ive owned it for a year, and have to say im MUCH closer to what im after, speakers are still my wink link, but the Mac sings with whatever I throw at it. As somoene else mentioned it doesnt seem as picky as the other gear ive owned. Just big, warm, smooth sound, not the last word in resolution I suppose...but with my recordings thats not what I want. I want listenability and it delivers.
To be fair to the Stingray I think with the right speaker pairing I might have never parted with it. If if if...:)
I also upgraded to an Apollo. Compared to my old Yamaha....just more of everything is how i'd describe it. Very nice.
Oh and upgraded my ICs to Audioquest Jaguars.
Im much happier then I was in 06 when I orginally posted, just wanted to update in case someone was starting down the road I did and had the same question(s)...maybe this will help...:) |
I revisited this old thread I started 10 years ago to refresh my memory on the great advice I got here. If any of you are your still lurking here...thank you! I still have the Mcintosh 6900, Apollo and Dali Royal Towers. About 2.5 years ago I moved to the Bay Area, housing what it is I didn't have space for my system and put it in storage. So since 2014 I have been using computer monitors for my musical fix.
I recently moved to another part of CA...where I could live in something other than a shoe box.... and was able to get my system setup again. After 2.5 years of not hearing my stereo... or any good stereo for that matter.... firing it up was amazing! It is interesting to see my comments from the very beginning and see the comparison to my opinion of my system today. Long story short... my problem on this quest was just as sogood51 and others pointed out at the time... I made the wrong speaker choice.
If anyone happens to read this thread due to starting a similar journey, and intent on a tube amp for rock, heed the advice here... speaker choice is critical.
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