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Tube amp for rock? Newb Questions

Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.

Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.

Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years:
Yamaha CDC 905 Changer
JVC 518VBK AV Reciever
Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers

Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.

So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.

Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?

To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?

As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?

I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)

I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.

I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?

For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?

I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
zamdrang

Showing 2 responses by gregm

gregm
3,411 posts
 
Zamdrang, a quick look at published specs for the Stingray & Dalis reveals the following challenges:

*output impedance Stingray 20 /100 Hz: 2,8/2,6ohm resp. Quite high, given that...
*Dali, "nominal" impedance (i.e. 1W/ at 1kHz???): 4 ohm

Further,
* Stingray output power triode/linear modes= 20/40W resp. which gives you a maximum undistorted sound pressure level on paper of 99/102dB at one metre away fm the speakers. Minus 6dB for every doubling of distance so at 4m away (usual listening distance) the max would be ~87/90dB. That's loud but not that loud ESPECIALLY when you have a lot of low frequency content (which eats up power)...

An approximation of real world dynamics may be had through horn-loaded speakers... such speakers would typically mate well with tube-based amps.

As a side issue, the Stingray output impedance specs: 20Hz-2,8 / 100Hz-2,6 / 1kHz- 2,0 seem to indicate that the output transformers are optimised for higher frequencies rather than lower frequency interfacing with the speakers. Also the, the 5ohm "optimal speaker load" plus "damping factor: 10" is puzzling; it would make more sense if this read: "optimal speaker load: min. 5ohm". Manley is a serious company so, if I'm not missing something, we can assume it's their marketing copy that got mixed up -- certainly not their engineers dept!
gregm
3,411 posts
 
Zam -- to generalise the issue: when I want s/thing to rock, I mean (among other things) I want to hear and feel the staccato, the sudden, the hard & the soft sound (whichever the rock player intended) -- and of course some of the impact energy contained in bass & percussion. This stands for rock music.
For rock you need the impact and the sudden acceleration & precise breaking (to use an automotive analogy).

In classical, restitution in harmonics, perceptibility and duration, and phase & timing (among other things) are absolutely necessary.

Having said that the applications (i.e. systems) MAY be different in both cases you ideally need ENERGY to emanate from the speakers.

To all intents and purposes, the most acoustic energy that can be had today will come from extremely sensitive speakers, i.e. ones that produce the most spl for each unit of power fed to them...
Failing that, you have to choose very powerful amplification and spkrs using very robust drivers that can take power abuse (i.e. mostly pro) .

Flimsy, designer, hi-end stuff ain't going to do it (or will typically cost more than a house + swimming pool)

And a final point: in an attempt to play, say, 89-92dB speakers "louder" rather than at whispering level, the loud musical passage is very likely to produce distortion and eventually blow one of the anaemic mid-woofs used in many spkrs. Why? Because to get the impact of, say, Mr Pastorius' slamming his bass chord in full musical transcendence (worse still, take a BBC recording of J Hendrix) you may feed the drivers with a gazilion watts for a few milliseconds even more, and this will be recurring -- you're listening to music after all...
They'll blow or if not, complain.
Cheers
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