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Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn

Showing 5 responses by rooze

rooze's avatar
rooze
645 posts
 
Aroc, I can't add anything new to this thread, only to reinforce what has already been said, particularly Tireguy's comments relating to high powered amps and specifically their capacity to deliver current.
I learned the hard way with my 3.6's, being stubborn as a mule I ignored peoples advice here, and splurged on a pair of Cary V12i Monoblocks, thinking that 200 tube watts would be plenty. Well the midrange sounded great, but the sound just wouldn't open up - stage depth and width were constricted and the sound was a little lifeless and bland.
I even tried vertical biamping with a pair of Perreaux amps, providing more watts than the Cary's, but still not enough!!
I even had a SS Mac 252 on home demo that puts out 250w into 4 and 8 ohms, I gave myself a hernia carrying it into the living room and the blasted thing shut down on thermal overload after 5 minutes of playing at moderate levels.
I'm now using a Krell FPB200, and although it technically is still only rated at 400w into 4 ohms, it does a much better job of opening the speaker up than anything previous. Based on my experience with the 200w Cary, I would guess that even a 450w amp like the VTL Mono's might be marginal. Remember also that as soon as the amp starts clipping you are going to start blowing fuses in the speakers.....I blew a dozen tweeter fuses using the Cary's and Perreaux's, even at modest volumes and even though the amps didn't sound strained in any way. I haven't lost a fuse yet with the Krell, (touch wood) and I play at even louder volumes.
Sell your soul to the devil, do what ever it takes, but get a pair of VTL 750w Mono's or bigger!!

Rooze
rooze's avatar
rooze
645 posts
 
Where do Magnepans peak as far as power is concerned?
I just tried the Carver ZR1600 with the 3.6R. I started off using 2 Carvers in bridged mono version, running biwired. These amps double their output when impedance is halved and are rated 1600w into 4 ohms. If I'm understanding this correctly, with my biwire configuration, each amp is seeing a 2ohm load, and therefore putting out 3200 watts per channel(potentially)!!
After getting a handle on the sound for a few hours, I changed over to one amp in stereo running biwired, which, according to the spec's is now 800 watts per channel. I couldn't detect any advantage between stereo with one amp and bridged Mono with two. Stage width and depth, bass extension etc appeared to be the same.
So at some point the speakers seem to peak, in terms of giving them 'as much power as possible'.

My previous amp was a Krell FPB200, outputting 400w into 4 ohms. I can't honestly say at this point that the Carvers 3200 watts 'opened up' the speakers any more than the Krell did. There is a small issue of break-in, since the Carvers only have about 30hrs on them, but I haven't heard any real noticable changes over the past 10 hrs or so. The Krell offered all the 'grip' that the Carvers do, and if anything, the stage width was a little wider with the Krell. Bass control and extension is similar, which is a remarkable achievement given the Carvers sticker price compared to the Krell.

So the question is, at what point do the 3.6's stop benefitting from more power?
The point/context of the question is: shouldn't a 450 watt tube amp like the VTL be enough, (delivering 500 watts into 4 ohms), if, as it seems, the speakers stop benefiting from more power somewhere around the 400 - 500 watt range?
What I'm trying to do is convince myself that the 450w VTL's will be man enough to handle the Maggie's, and that more watts are not really necessary.
How good a job am I doing of pulling the wool over my own eye's....help!
rooze's avatar
rooze
645 posts
 
Eldartford, I think I would have to agree with you, though some might argue that the smaller amps provide some inner detail that the bigger amps tend to mask.
However, this exercise has helped to illuminate the power requirement curve of the 3.6 and indicate at what point the benefits of more power start to taper off. I'm feeling a little more confident about trying something like the VTL 450, with 500w into 4 ohms. Then again I may try the EA mod on the Carver and see how that sounds!
rooze's avatar
rooze
645 posts
 
Eldartford, from what I've learned at audiocircle there are two companies offering different upgrades (some common changes, but overall very different sonic results) and the preferred one seems to Empirical Audio (www.empiricalaudio.com)
Their mod is $1650 with shipping on top. So assuming about $25.00 each way, that would be $1700 plus the $750 for the amp, $2450
A pair of used VTL 450's could be had for about $3750
So it's a case of which is going to sound better.

On the audiocircle website there is a shootout between 2 modified ZR's and an ARC VT200, and though somewhat inconclusive, the ARC appears to come out on top against criteria such as midrange and musicality. Given that the VTL 450 is probably a better sounding amp than the ARC, it suggests an even wider margin may exist between the modified Carver and the VTL’s, in favor of the VTL.

This is the dilemma that I have. I don’t want to have second best for the sake of spending another $1300 bucks. I realize all this is subjective and down to personal taste, and that the methodology of arriving at these observations is flawed, however, with an audition of both a VTL and modified Carver being impossible for me, it’s the only method I have to make a decision.

Which way would you go, given the above?
rooze's avatar
rooze
645 posts
 
El..Just to add to the above comment, I think a lot of people would enjoy the process that I've been going through this past year, trying out different amps. So far I've had 9 amps in a year and counting.

I kind of enjoyed it for a while but it's now gotten to be a real pain in the butt, not to mention the back and other parts of my fragile anatomy. In fact, I've been walking around with a permanent stoop from carrying too many 100LB+ amps in and out of the house!!
On Monday, I sprouted a third testicle whilst lifting a Krell FPB200 out of the trunk of my little Dodge Stratus R/T at the UPS station....The woman on the desk asked if I was having a seizure when I walked in. She asked the same question just after she quoted me $467.00 for shipping to my buyer in Sweden.
The Carver sure would be easier on my back and balls, not to mention my wallet.

Rooze

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