Tri-Planar with no anti-skate?

I love the triplanar arm. Along the same line, has anyone use no damping fluid at all?

Thanks

Newbee to vinyl

I used to be in the minimal antiskate camp. I setup everything else first and then dial in anti-skate by ear and test record. By using torture tracks on the test record, it resulted in a much higher antiskate setting than I would use by ear. I felt that my ears should be the ultimate judge and determined that is the best setting. Torture tracks were unneccessary torture for me and the stylus.

Recently, I visited a knowledgeable friend. He managed so much information from the groove that I have never heard. He suggested setting antiskate using the test record and than redo VTF, VTA and azimuth to suite to the new antiskate setting.

In doing this exercise, I have resulted in much better sound: much more detail, cleaner bass, a soundstage that extends as far to the right and to the left with no hole or gap in the middle.

At the increased antiskate setting, the azimuth is changed by a small amount. Under dynamic condition, the skating force applies an inward force on the tip of the stylus. THe antiskate applies an outward force at the headshell. The net result is a tiny amount of torque along the axis of the cartridge body and changes the azimuth.

After the new antiskate and azimuth is set. I proceeded to define a new VTF and VTA setting. I find that I can extract much more info by tracking at a lower tracking force. By properly using antiskate to compensate for skating, I can focus on adjusting VTF to properly align the coil within the magnet housing and minimize THD. Inadequate antiskate will encourage increasing VTF. If skating force and VTF are looked upon as a vector, increasing VTF will point the vector more vertically. This would minimize the nastiness generated by the skating force but would not change the net horizontal force acting on the cart. SImply, using the same force (skating) but tugging on a heavier load will result in less motion. It does not change the net horizontal force needed to completely counterract the opposing force.

Another friend of mine used an USB oscilloscope to look at THD with varying antiskate and azimuth. While proper azimuth is needed to point the stylus vertical to the record, proper antiskate is needed to keep the stylus tip at the very bottom of the groove. Inadequate antiskate will let the stylus track more along the inner groove away from the outer groove. This causes THD to rise in the right channel and obscure fine details.

The minimal (or no) antiskate setting along with increase VTF produce a warmer sound due to THD. THD is generated from the suboptimally tracted outer groove and the THD improperly raised VTF.

I was very grateful that my friends shared the info with me. My wife is forcing me off audiogon now. I will expand on the subjective difference betw the settings.

Lewm: VTF may increase skating force but probably less than 1:1 ratio. Antiskate force is multifactoral and some portion of it is probably not modified by VTF.
I am saying that increase VTF reduces the nastiness generating by skating force. This is different than saying VTF reduces skating force. Even if VTF increased the skating force, the increase skating force is contending with a higher tracking force and therefore end result is less problematic gross mistracking. (Look at it as a vector with both magnitude and direction).

DanEd - My friend measured THD of the two channels using USB spectral analyzer while tinkering with antiskate and azimuth. Search Rick stereopal.

When I was using the minimal or no antiskate setting, I did not have any gross tracking problems. It is rather that the soundstage does not illuminate to the same degree in the right channel. For an orchestra, the first violinist and lead violist are still to the left and right. In the left channel, the recording ambience and the locations of the rest of the violinist are very apparent. In the right channel, the locations of the remaining violist, cellist are less specific in relation to the lead and the ambient clues are much less apparant. In an opera, when the singer is moving towards the back of the stage, the way the voice excite the boundary is apparent on the right but not so much on the left. I think these are due to increased THD in the right channel from inadequate antiskate. It obscured very subtle clues in the recording that provides the sense of space (boundary interactions, reverb).

I have used two triplanars, grahams in various length, centroid, dynavector 507, davinci, fidelity research and various cartridges. I find this relationship to hold true in most cases.

Regarding VPI various length with no antiskate, I have not owned them. I would share my experience with 12inch vs 9inch graham. I initially anticipated a lower antiskate setting on the dog leg when going from 9 to 12 inch. My anticipation came from less tracking error reduces skating force. While this is still true, the reduced skating force applies more torque towards the tonearm center from the added length. (Or the same setting on the dog leg applies less torque at the tip of arm). Reduced skating force but more torque ultimately landed me to the same setting at the dog leg.

I am still learning a lot of this and I may be wrong. All I am saying is that trying this method may yield better sound. Setting antiskate as a finally adjustment will lands you in the no to minimal antiskate setting because we just spent time optimizing everything without antiskate. Adding antiskate at the end is like throwing a wrench into it. VTF, azimuth, VTA needs to be redone to appreciate the advantages of proper antiskate setting.

I suspect our differences may rest on location of the groove and the terminology. Are you refering to the general schemes of different alignment? Stevenson have increased average tracking error across the record but less skate force at the innermost tract. L and B have less averaging tracking error but increased skating at the innermost track.

I am refering to the actual forces acting on the stylus at the innermost tract. The fact that Stevenson can feature least amount of skating at the inner groove is deal to minimizing tracking error at the inner most groove ( null point).

Where can I read more about skating?

Dan-ed: As long as a good effort has been made on re- adjusting VTF, SRA, azimuth to go along with the new increased antiskate setting, you heard what you like. One should always setup according to one's preference. Who can argue with that? I measures stuff to no end and I understand the importance of critical listening.

Lewm:

(1) To some people, proportional connotes linearity, two values can increase and decrease geometrically or exponentially and I personally would not call them proportional( not important if we disagree). I have spent them at Whiting school of engineering and if I remeber, you are also in the Baltimore/DC area with interests in virology. We did share some common ground. :^)
(2) I don't think I said anything about setting antiskate higher than VTF.
(3) "If the headshell is not offset at an angle to the arm tube, then there is no skating force but lots of tracking error."

Consider a linear tracking arm which the headshell is not at an offset. For your statement to be true, there would mean no skating force and maximum tracking error. How could that be?

When I was refering to tracking error increase skating, I was referring to the inner grooves.

This is my understanding. To be more specific with Lofgren and Baerwald, tracking error at the outer track reduces skating force. Tracking error at the inner tracks increases the skating force. Stevenson shoot for 0 tracking error at innermost groove to minimize skating at the inner most track.

Lew: How about the Stevenson alignment used by dv507 (pivoted arm) which supposely put the null point at the innermost track? The advantage of this approach is to minimize tracking error and hence reduce skating.

Where can I read more about skating force?

Dear Jonathan,

Would you educate us on how various forces contribute to antiskate? How should one go about setting the correct antiskate?

Many thanks

Gordon