"I then set them up in Room B or the small room, well away from the back and spies walls and in an equilateral triangle position with the listener. 20 stands were used to prop them up."
Fasinating really. . . sounds like it must have taken at most 2 minutes to set up the speakers. . . and the beauty is that with this advanced visual methodology of placing them exactly "well away" from the walls, you do not even have to bother listening to the speakers for position optimization. G. |
Stereomojo said:
"I then set them up in Room B or the small room, well away from the back and spies walls and in an equilateral triangle position with the listener. 20 stands were used to prop them up."
That's pathetic. Almost any speaker will sound like shit if set up like that. You have no idea what you're doing. You need to place the speaker in the room so that the interaction with the room and between the speakers balances the bass and midrange performance. The highs are dealt with with rake angle. You also need a stand that'll get the tweeter up around 40" high.
Anyone considering these speakers should buy them through an independent Sumiko dealer and avail themselves of the Sumiko Master Set to properly place the speakers. BB is only an option if you know how to set them yourself. Don't look to Stereomojo for guidance...
Beerad, congrats on thinking for yourself and working to make the speakers work. I love my Beethoven Baby Grands.
Dave |
I read stereomojo's review and appreciate his take on the speakers. This forum is not a witch hunt to try and prove that ones opinion is better than another but rather a place to share ideas. Kudos to stereomojo for stating his opinion and not being afraid to publish it and share it with others. I am a happy owner of VA Baby Beethoven's and did not get my feelings hurt by stereomojo. DCStep I agree with raking the speaker back 10% - 15% it made a big difference on my system
Thanks, |
"They were set up according to the manual."
care elaborating? G. |
If you truly read our review, you would see that our findings AND measurements were exactly the same as two other well regarded European mags. We even quote them at the end of the review. The difference is, they copped out and did not state the obvious that these speakers as evidenced by three reviews on two different continents in at least three different systems and rooms did not fair very well. if you want to lean on TAS, that's fine. Just ask yourself when is the last time they actually recommended that you not bother to audition something?
"Yeah, that Mojo guy is interesting. The fact that he sets of (sic) speakers using measurement speaks volumes to me"
BTW< we did not set them up after we took the measurements. They were set up according to the manual. |
Yeah, that Mojo guy is interesting. The fact that he sets of speakers using measurement speaks volumes to me. No one can measure there way to speaker placement, IMHO. He criticizes others for letting Sumiko place the speakers, but I think his thinking is flawed.
My experience is in line with TAS. Of course, I've only heard them set up by a Sumiko expert, using the Sumiko Master Set technology. Set up is critically important for ANY speaker. If I were a professional reviewer I would learn how to do the Sumiko Master Set so that I'd be certain to review each speaker in their best light.
Dave |
This reviewer at stereo mojo must really have a bone to
pick with Vienna Acoustics beacause he really hated these
speakers. He conducted a "small speaker shootout" and all
3 panelists agreed with him that they would NOT recommend
the Haydn Grands.
Check out this review at stereo mojo.com and let me know
your thoughts. They are the ONLY reveiwer I found on the
web with such negative comments on the Haydns |
I'm agreement with Dave.
My beloved Haydns (HT) are paired with Musical Fidelity A308 power amp (250 watts dual mono.) It's a good match for the Haydns. Lots of clean current and dynamics. I get good midbass and I have no complaints about the treble.
Last night I listened to "Indigo CD" by Patrick O'Hearn (Keyboards, Electronics, Bass & Percussion). The CD has lots of different percussion sounds and electronic sounds that are very dynamic with amazing depth. I usually don't play vocals (I'm strictly Jazz trio or instrumentals) but last night for whatever reason played "The Raven" by Rebecca Pigeon. Great recording voice (not that crazy about the music) but I loved how the Haydns presented her voice in large soundstage and the little micro details of closing of the lips and breathing. Yeah I heard all of that...and vocals are not my main thing.
pierre |
Hi Campton, I will consider granting Stereo Mojo a minimum of credibility as soon as their reviewers learn to write with correct English grammar. . . and learn to spell Haydn (rather than 'Hadyn'). Please see Neil gader's review of the Haydn Grands on TAS 176 instead:
http://avguide.com/products/product-4054/
Here's Neil's teaser:
"Frankly, youd have to have a screw loose not to enjoy this speaker. Small, unimposing, but an aesthetic delight to behold and a sonic pleasure to experience, the Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand is a giant killer of the old school."
Here is a suggestion. If indeed you can find them in some Magnolia/Best Buy department, pick one pair up. Use it for 3 weeks. . . . play them 24/7 to break them in properly. If after 3 weeks and about 400 hrs of operation you find them to be flawed, return them and get your money back. . . per standard Best Buy policy. |
Dave,
Go to stereo mojo website and you can read the terrible
review given to the Haydns. They say.."the top is soft
and the bottom is loud..not a good mix."
They say they dont even recommend audtioning them at home. |
02-16-08: Campton said:
"Thanks...
yes, but with the VA's have an open and airy top?
The 3 reviews ive reading claim this is their shortcoming.
They say the top is too soft and laid back...no real detail."
Interesting. I thought I'd read all the VA reviews and I never saw that. Fortunately I was able to make a choice with my ears and that was not the case at all.
How anyone could criticize the mids and highs of any VA speaker in the two-channel line is beyond me. I consider it one of their strengths.
I play trumpet in several serious groups, ranging from funk/rock/soul, to Copland & Stravinsky, to church and Hefti. I also attend lots of live musical events. I love sopranos and vocalists in general. If the Haydns highs were soft I would have heard it right away. I'm very sensitive to this area of the frequency response curve.
Still, you may not like it. As Guido says, different strokes for different folks.
I write reviews of guitar equipment for Just Jazz Guitar and I found that their tend to be different "camps" of sound. Guitar amps are purposely colored so I try to describe how might sound by reference to famous guitarists that all the readers will know. With the VA I'll just tell you that Wes Montgomery will sound like Wes and Jim Hall will sound like Jim. Clifford Brown will sound like Brownie and Arturo Sandavol will sound like Arturo.
Dave |
Campton, unless you listen to them yourself, you will never know if the Hydns are for you. It is worth pointing out that what for some people is an 'airy top' is for someone else a hissy earbleeder, which Vienna speakers are typically not. |
Thanks...
yes, but with the VA's have an open and airy top?
The 3 reviews ive reading claim this is their shortcoming.
They say the top is too soft and laid back...no real detail. |
There's always room for improvement, but your rig should work nicely with the VAs, IMHO. Remember, toe them in so that you just see a sliver of the inside sides from you listening position and rake them back about 10-degrees.
Unless you room is really large, you'll have enough power and control of the drivers. In a larger room I'd like to see 200+ watts continuous into 4 ohms. Ignore that "dynamic power" crap that NAD spouts. However, you're in good shape in most rooms.
Dave |
Campton, I Googled the NAD C352. Found a link showwing the following:
Damping factor (ref 8 ohms 50 Hz), >150
This is probably adequate for the Haydn Grands. However, I would also recommend you discuss synergy with a knowledgeable dealer for Vienna, such as Soundings of Denver (Co). Their phone number is: 303-759-5505. |
Thanks Guidecorna....
The gear I have that I will use is a new NAD C352 integ
amp and the Music Hall CD-25.2 and DH Labs cables with
Skylan 28" stands.
Will this gear make the VA's come alive?? |
As Dave suggested, Vienna speakers come to life when driven stoutly by amps with high damping factors. When paired with the right amp they are in fact very dynamic whith extended but seldom tizzy highs, musical mids and extended bass. Viennas benefit from a methodical/careful placement to optimize response, particularly in the bass region.
What kind of music do you enjoy, and what optimum sound are you trying to achieve? |
They need to be raked back a little, say 10-15 degrees. The non-floor standers need a stand that gets the tweeters around 36-40" off the floor.
Dave |
That may be why I found the Haydn to be soft and having restricted dynamics. It actually lulled me to sleep. However, I was using two different tube amps so that may have been at least part of the problem. |
I don't own the Haydn Grand, but I own the Beethoven Baby Grands and I've heard the Haydn fairly extensively, but not in my system.
The character of the top ends of these two speakers is very close, IMHO, which is not soft and lacking dynamics. VA speakers like a good bit of power and high damping factors from the amps. With Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Primare and Rowland, for example, they work very well. The yield a smooth, detailed, transparent and highly articulate top end. They're not "etched", just musical.
Dave |
