Tranfiguration Orpheus description

You're right that VTF must be absolutely spot-on before you can truly optimize VTA/SRA. Doing that by ear requires listening for:

a) the integration or timing of fundamentals vs. harmonics (what Frank Schroeder and I hear) or,

b) the quickest rise/fall times and greatest amplitudes of individual notes, especially bass notes (what Paul hears).

One of my New Year's resolutions may be to wonder less if I'm a few angels shy of a pin full and wonder more at the music itself. Those might not be mutually exclusive activities, but its not New Years yet.

So maybe Doug and others can elaborate on what/how one listens when making small changes. Sometimes the vocabulary we use strikes me as chunkier than the product of the fine grained adjustments it attempts to describe. I'm fascinated as much by the assessment part of the process as the analytics and rationales.

From the above, I interpret 'a)' (integration of fundamental and harmonics) as the absence or lessening of what I call tonal 'smearing'. To me this is as much a temporal issue as it is anything, but I'd love for anyone to elaborate further. Several hundred messages ago in this thread we mentioned the piccolo solo in the third movement of Tchaikovski's 4th - many notes in a short span of time. When the leading edges bump into the trailing edges, such that notes are less tonally individuated, I call this 'smearing'. A smeared single note is slightly 'de-focused' tonally, it is less 'compact' as if its harmonics slather outside proper temporal boundaries. Correlating back to reality, better 'tonal focus' means homing in on the setup sweet spot. Is this at all close to what you're talking about??

Wrt to 'b)', I think I grasp listening for amplitude, but help me out with listening for 'quickest rise/fall time'. More words (heh) or an example? Without knowing better, I'd think this was ultimately the same thing as 'a)' put differently, but that could just mean I'm confused.

Apologies if my phenomenological bent goes against the grain of the thread - just more universal struggle for understanding what is sometimes tough to put into words. Betwixt the turn of the dial, the tenth of the degree, and the ear is where I'm working. How, or to what, do you listen for the effect of the changes you're making?

Ho, ho, ho,
Tim

Dan_Ed wrote:

I don't know any other way to say it, but AS is a necessary evil that must be kept to a minimum. What I have found is that by going into the same range with vtf that Andrew posted has greatly reduced the propensity for my setup to mis-track. Doug and I have discussed this effect in the past but I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical. Well, I'm a true believer now! I've replaced the 3.9 gram AS weight with what amounts to just under 1 gram with no mis-tracking on any of the LP's I own that used to cause me to bump up the AS. The increase in dynamics and resolution has my jaw on the floor!

BIG SMILEY FACE!

Your post that SirSpeedy has already admired is worthy of a second admiration.
- listen to hear what the cartridge wants
- balance the nimbleness of being on the edge of mistracking with the authority of more downforce
- use just enough AS to prevent mistracking

Brilliantly and simply expressed. We have a Zen master. :-)

Sometimes the vocabulary we use strikes me as chunkier than the product of the fine grained adjustments it attempts to describe.

Very true. Trying to express these experiences in words is quite challenging.

From the above, I interpret 'a)' (integration of fundamental and harmonics) as the absence or lessening of what I call tonal 'smearing'. To me this is as much a temporal issue as it is anything, but I'd love for anyone to elaborate further. Several hundred messages ago in this thread we mentioned the piccolo solo in the third movement of Tchaikovski's 4th - many notes in a short span of time. When the leading edges bump into the trailing edges, such that notes are less tonally individuated, I call this 'smearing'. A smeared single note is slightly 'de-focused' tonally, it is less 'compact' as if its harmonics slather outside proper temporal boundaries. Correlating back to reality, better 'tonal focus' means homing in on the setup sweet spot. Is this at all close to what you're talking about??

EXACTLY RIGHT! Paul actually uses the word "smearing". I use the phrase "temporal integration". We're talking about the same thing and so are you. The attack of resin on string, the vibration of the string, the reverb in the body: all must occur with timing that's realistic relative to each other. Otherwise it doesn't sound like a violin.

Wrt to 'b)', I think I grasp listening for amplitude, but help me out with listening for 'quickest rise/fall time'. More words (heh) or an example? Without knowing better, I'd think this was ultimately the same thing as 'a)' put differently, but that could just mean I'm confused.

Well, it is the same thing in different words, and since you hear (a) as I do perhaps that's what you should listen for. I mentioned (b) largely to help those who hear more like Paul than me.

This is Paul's thing more than mine, but one example is that, while visiting Cello, he was able to adjust arm height by the feel of the air coming from the woofers, without LISTENING at all. When each pulse had maximum intensity and fastest slope, on both ends, he knew VTA/SRA was right.

I "think" the easiest way to explain this is SRA theory. The playback stylus can only trace a waveform accurately if its SRA matches that of the cutting stylus. If SRA is way off, the stylus would "slide" onto and off of a modulation more gradually than it should. This would lengthen and smooth both leading and trailing edge transients, artificially raise the noise floor and thus reduce peak amplitudes relative to that floor. I'm not claiming that's what actually happens, SRA theory is controversial, but that's what it sounds like.

So, is this all too neurotic? Only if we let it be. It's really become just second nature. I don't fret about whether VTA/SRA is right, I adjust only if and when I notice that it's not. Of course, becoming more sensitized does mean you notice more often. ;-)

I'll jump up from the dinner table to adjust arm height on a record we haven't played before, just because my ears have learned which way to go and about how far. It's mostly a matter of practice, but the practicing isn't unpleasant and it doesn't stop my toes from tapping. We only do it because it's easier to enjoy the music with good timing than be annoyed by inaccurate timing and smearing.

And our infamous yellow stickies are a HUGE help. Trying to find the right spot from scratch on every play of every LP WOULD be insane. Raul or Dan will tell you I have arm height dialed in on familiar LP's before the platter gets up to speed. Record keeping makes the whole thing a virtual no-brainer on a daily basis.

I will humbly assert my title is Zen Grasshopper as I cannot yet pluck the pebble. :)

Really good questions, Tim. I've been fortunate to receive several lessons from Doug and Paul in the art of sound characterizations. I also listen for what Doug refers to. I'm getting little snap-shots of what Paul listens for but I'm still not quite in tune. And what makes it worse is that Paul comes in from another room pointing out what is wrong! BTW, I noticed you have the Orpheus as well as Andrew. Can you post the cartridge weight and compliance just for reference?

This morning I'm finding that VTA did need to go up about 1/2 a turn. I believe this is in keeping with the SRA theory after more VTF is applied. Anyway, that's what it took to get back that hollow shimmer of the cymbals.

I feel like we should move all of this to another thread, but since Andrew started it . . .

Thanks Dan_ed and Doug - here are manufacturer's specs for the Orpheus. Relatives arriving so more later...

Weight: 9 g
Dynamic compliance: 13 x 10 to the minus 6cm/dyne
Stylus: Ogura PA (3 x 30 µm) solid diamond
Output voltage: 0.48mV (3.54cm/second, 1 KHz)
Internal impedance: 2.5 ohms
Frequency response: 10Hz - 20Hz +1.5dB 20kHz - 40 kHz + 2dB
Channel separation: > 30 dB, 200Hz - 1 kHz
Channel balance: < 0.5dB, 1 kHz

Best wishes for a happy Christmas season,
Tim

Wow! This thread really took off since I was here last.

I'm thinking of finally upgrading from my Temper W to the Orpheus but I deleted the email with the price list I was receiving from someone around here. I remember the Orpheus was selling for around $2700ish? Is my memory correct? Is this a reliable souce? Warranty included? My retailer wants $5k or $2500 with trade-in. BIG difference!

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks.

I had an Orpheus in my system for about three weeks (loan from a friend), and I've heard it in two other systems I know very well. In all of these systems, this is a terrific cartridge. It sounds much more lively and engaging than the Temper W (a cartridge I do not really like because it sounds a touch lifeless).

As far as tonal balance, it sounds a bit more midrange prominent than my Titan, and perhaps has a bit less "air" or openness on top than the Titan, but, overall, they both are great sounding cartridges.

Thanks for the emails everyone. Very much appreciated!

- Gary

This is a thread that I did not want to see come back,as I feel I was an instigator of bad judjement/feelings,but amybe I can aid,with some decent info.
The trade on the Orpheus,from a Temper is 2550.There is a guy(Nsgarsh knows how to get in touch with him,as I have no web info here)who sells grey market Orpheus for 2700 dollars.He is supposedly very reputable,but you have NO warrantee.It is your decision to go this route.
The Temper-V,which I own(a good friend has a Graham Phantom/Orpheus)can stand up to the Orpheus(it is not "lifeless",to me)but is "clearly", slightly, bettered in almost ALL meaningful parameters.A big deal,if you have a very hi res set-up.
I really believe the Titan(another pal has one)is a great design,and I have heard it TONS of times on a huge assortment of wonderful vinyl.
YET,the number of choices are SO,SO good(UNI/XV1-S/Colibri/Allaerts/Air Tight etc)that to me,it should come down to what is the best match to your arm,AND what is the best financial arrangement one can make.
Best to all!

Speedy,
I am in total agreement with you. I have a "W" and absolutely love it. Lifeless?????? Far from it!! Also, it mates extremely well with my Basis/Vector combo and is very musical to my ears through my Klipschorns.

I think I'll pass on a non-warrantied Orpheus. Just too much money to take the chance IMO. When the time comes, I'll trade in my Temper (reluctantly) and stick with the folks I purchased it from initially. Besides, they'll come to my house and set it up for me. Not that I can't do it myself but I'm a tad lazy and also enjoy spinning records with anyone willing to join me, even if I'm paying for the privilege ;)