Dear Andrew/Doug: Interesting cartridges test but a little useless.
It is obvious that Andrew and Doug have a different music perception top to bottom frequency range and especially in the mid and low bass. I'm not sure who is nearest to the music but maybe could be because one of them hear more often live music or maybe because Andrew system goes really deep in the bass and he can perceive things that Doug can't in its system ( the Andrew brain is already equalized to his system and in a way its brain treat to synthesize about ).
Both systems can't be more different: a wood TT against all metal one, speakers/room, phonolinepreamp, amplifier and cables, add to all these that Andrew don't bring with him the LP's that he knows better.
The other subject is that the set up of the U was executed exactly to the Doug music sound priorities ( and that Doug's brain is perfectly equalized with the U characteristics ) at a very high level of critic ( that VTA madness in each LP !!! ). I can't be sure which one will be the results if the O " suffer " the same high level on the set up.
Other subject is that the U is very happy with the Triplanar and we don't know if this tonearm is the best O match.
Now, how many hours they take on the tests? and how they make those tests?. For any cartridges comparison we need a procedure to follow for that comparison could be useful.
There are, at least, two things that disturb me: first is that the O can't track the Trio LP and the second is that the sound at 47K was a very lesser one.
The former could be that the O suspension it is not settle down or that that O is out of specs ( we can't know it at this time because we don't have any info about how many hours needs the O. Andrew please ask to the manufacturer. Maybe the O needs 300 hours, who knows. Btw, my Colibri needs 300 hours and after that Dr. Van denHul makes the last adjustment. ), the 47K could be a problem with the Doug phonolinepreamp because in the Andrew one everything is right ( at least at 447K ).
I think that with all these variables ( and others ) we can't have a fair opinion about the O. Some people in the thread, especially Mark give us some opinions about the O that from my point of view were irresponsible taking in count who is Mark.
I had the opportunity to heard the V/W and none has the characteristics that Doug mentioned and I don't think that the O design/build put up for sale its new flag-ship model that is inferior in its quality sound reproduction than the lower models, I assume that they make a extended voicing about.
I think that before we make a false assumption ( like Mark ) about the O we have to wait a little more time where we could have more O owners experiences, of course that always exist the possibility that the O designer/builder made a mistake with the O.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Andrew/Doug: Interesting cartridges test but a little useless.
It is obvious that Andrew and Doug have a different music perception top to bottom frequency range and especially in the mid and low bass. I'm not sure who is nearest to the music but maybe could be because one of them hear more often live music or maybe because Andrew system goes really deep in the bass and he can perceive things that Doug can't in its system ( the Andrew brain is already equalized to his system and in a way its brain treat to synthesize about ).
Both systems can't be more different: a wood TT against all metal one, speakers/room, phonolinepreamp, amplifier and cables, add to all these that Andrew don't bring with him the LP's that he knows better.
The other subject is that the set up of the U was executed exactly to the Doug music sound priorities at a very high level of critic ( that VTA madness each LP !!! ). I can't be sure which one will be the results if the O " suffer " the same high level of set up.
Now, how many hours they take on the tests? and how they make those tests?. For any cartridges comparison we need a procedure to follow for that comparison could be useful.
There are, at least, two things that disturb me: first is that the O can't track the Trio LP and the second is that the sound at 47K was a very lesser one.
The former could be that the O suspension it is not settle down or that that O is out of specs ( we can't know it at this time because we don't have any info about how many hours needs the O. Andrew please ask to the manufacturer. Maybe the O needs 300 hours, who knows. Btw, my Colibri needs 300 hours and after that Dr. Van denHul makes the last adjustment. ), the 47K could be a problem with the Doug phonolinepreamp because in the Andrew one everything is right ( at least at 47K ).
I think that with all these variables ( and others ) we can't have a fair opinion about the O. Some people in the thread, especially Mark give us some opinions about the O that from my point of view were irresponsible taking in count who is Mark.
I had the opportunity to heard the V/W and none has the characteristics that Doug mentioned and I don't think that the O design/build put up for sale its new flag-ship model that is inferior in its quality sound reproduction than the lower models, I assume that they make a extended voicing about.
I think that before we make a false assumption ( like Mark ) about the O we have to wait a little more where we could have more O owners experiences, of course that always exist the possibility that the O designer/builder made a mistake with the O.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dan: The Andrew Dunlavy Audio Labs SC-IVa speakers are almost full range and only a subwoofer system could beat it in the bass regard.
The differences in the quality sound perception ( everything else the same ) between a full range system and one like the Doug one is huge ( I'm not saying that the Dou system was not a good one, I'm sure it is. ) not only in the low bass reproduction but all over the frequency range including sounstage. That last one or one and a half music octave makes a huge difference and those differences are for the better. When you hear it you can't live with out it and ( like Andrew ) when you have it you can discern better on the music and this fact has a very simple reason: who could have better music perception: one person that the only music that he heard is " live music " or a person that the only music that he heard is through an audio system?, now: who could have better music perception ( all things the same ), one person that heard always music through a full range system than other person that heard always through a non full range system?
Doug knows that one of my old " feelings " ( good feelings ) about his system always was and still is the limited bass frequency range response that had his 803's, but today I know that he can't do almost nothing about because its place space limitations.
About the 47K it is difficult for sure to know where is the problem but at least in the Andrew CAT ( btw, in my Essential 3150 I never had that kind of problem ) the problem does not exist and that's why I " feel " that the problem is in the Doug unit and yes Dan we usually hear a brightness at 47K but I think that was not the problem from what Doug and Andrew posted. What is sure is that the Andrew O is incompatible with the Doug unit at 47K .
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: I don't want to repeat here what I already posted to Dan ( before I read yours ), there where some answers about.
I don't want, too, start with an U controversy ( please don't ), far from there.
Doug, somewhere I posted that I never had the opportunity to heard the U only a Fuji and a 3. From my very first posts about I always give my personal opinion about ZYX cartridges: faulty at both frequency extremes range, especially at the low bass. Remember?.
The Andrew opinion about is, at least, the five other opinion in this forum about the U little problem bass performance. If you recall, I told you that you could not hear the U bass problems because your audio system can't goes low down, remember?. Well nothing is change and you are right I never heard the U and if the designer can't fix the low bass subject is useless for me to heard it, as a fact I want to buy a ZYX unit but something a little better than the U and I'm not saying that the U is not a good cartridge: it is, the subject is that at the moment I own several good cartridges and I need no more but something better. How " sound " you the U2?, I have to wait for it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Andrew: +++++ " . I can happily live with the sound that I get in mys system... " +++++
This is the most important subject to you.
+++++ " how amazing the Uni must sound in my system.. " +++++
I don't know but maybe you will be surprised about!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear neil: I agree with you about SRA.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Andrew: +++++ " In Doug's system, Paul felt the VTA for the O was just right when the tonearm was moderately lower than parallel. Similar position used for the Universe. " +++++
It is a big surprise to me that two different stylus type cartridges with different electrical design and build characteristics can perform at the same top performance level at the exactly the same SRA.
+++++ " In my system, I have the tonearm pivot base adjusted so that the tonearm is moderatley higher than parallel. " +++++
The question is: do you agree with the O SRA set up on Doug system?
The other important subject is if both cartridges have the same output level, can you tell me about? did doug changes in the volume position each time that you change of cartridge hearing?
Btw Andrew, I read that the O needs only 30 hours and if this figure is right I'm really worried about the O mistracking problem because according to specs the O tracking ability is higher than 70um at 1.8gr that is a good spec and that figure increment maybe to 80-85um at the VTF that you run it at Doug's place, this could mean that your O could have a suspension problem, I can't really sure and is better that you ask to your dealer about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: I think is important to know one spec about your phonolinepreamp unit that could help to understand what are you hearing through it.
That spec is: inverse RIAA eq. deviation between 20 to 20khz.
The Andrew CAT has a manufacturer spec on this regard of: +,- 0.1 db from 20 to 20kHz.
Could you find it for us?
Thx in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: As the " actors " of this controversial cartridge test post/posted about the situation has more fail and misunderstanding, example: Doug post that the O set up was made with the usually " VTA madness " that he likes and in other post Andrew told us: +++++ " we did not make large enough changes( speaking of VTA ) to evaluate the cartridge with a parallele...." +++++
Between other things that Doug or Andrew mentioned is how they match the volume gain for every time that they change the volume gain with each cartridge this volume gain was exactly for both cartridges due to its different output.
This subject is extreme critical because any small difference in the SPL is detected for our ears/brain and that small SPL difference could give us not small changes in the frequency response that could alter in a very sensitive way the sound perception.
Other issue that is related with the changes in the volume gain setting is that normally almost all the preamps change its frequency response when change the volume pot position and this alter the quality sound reproduction for both cartridges but in different way. Here the designer could explain us about in the Doug's unit.
I think that Doug don't read yet what I aked him: the inverse RIAA eq. deviation from 20 to 20kHz in his unit, this is extremly critical especially with top cartridges like the O and U. Here again I ask to the designer for he can give us his unit info: important!! ( It's curious that Mr. Doshi don't comes yet to this thread when we need very important information about his unit and for understand better what happen with this controversial cartridge test. I'm saying this because I read posts of Mr. Doshi in other lesser threads. )
All these subjects ( including others that I posted here ) are important and are related with what Larryi posted: +++++ " I really can't see how any phono component can be evaluated other than as part of an evaluation of the complete system " +++++ and Larryi if you don't mind: not only a phono component but any audio device.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Friends: Sorry for sentence mistake: " Between other things that Doug or Andrew mentioned ", it should be: not mentioned.
" yet what I aked him: ", will be: asked him.
Raul. |
Dear Doug: Sorry to disturb again. My last post was only to state that there are differences in what Andrew think was the O set up and in what you state about. This Andrew post confirm it: +++++ " We did not evaluate a broad range of VTA in Doug's system . Paul tried several setting within a small range but I beleive all of the settings put the arm lower than parallel. Although, I preferred one of these settings, we did not make large enough changes to evaluate the cartridge with a parallele or slightly elevated arm. " +++++, I can tell you I'm not blind and I'm not doing criticisms only for doing that but for trying to help to understand the results of that cartridge test: that's all !!!!
Btw, those three subjects: precise volume gain, frequency response with changes in volume gain and RIAA accuracy, are crucial in any two cartridge test and are very important to understand the results and if you can it will be nice that you share the info with us.
Doug, it is normal the reaction of all the people ( including me ) in this thread when the test's results are controversial like this ones, be patience.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Thom: Yes, any cartridge show its nature after 10: it is a shadow but it is part of its nature.
The essential character after 80-100?, yes ( too ).
There are cartridges, like my Colibri, that take a lot more time to really know their " secrets ".
Anyway, in my case I take a little more time because I'm testing the cartridge with different tonearms and this is very time consuming.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Neil: " +++++ But I've been wondering: you try many many tonearm-and-cartridge combinations. So how do you remember from one to another so you can decide what you liked best? " +++++
What you liked best?: a very hard call. I have my own music sound priorities ( you can look at " my system " ) refered to live music.
First I don't try, yet, all my cartridges ( more than 30, I think ) with each one of my tonearms ( around 15-18 ): there is no time for do it. Now, I have a very good idea of my tonearms performance/characteristics ( this help me to choose cartridg/toneam combinations ) and the whole cartridges characteristics too.
I set-up the VTA/SRA and the other set-up parameters on an average way ( I can't do it like Doug: for each record ), usually with 180gr LP's. I have two records and two cuts in each one that are my references where I " measure /test " each combination: when the sound settle/right on those record cuts that's mean that the set-up is on target but this not tell me, yet, which combination meets exactly with my priorities.
What I tell you now maybe could sound a little sealy: from the combinations that I already have in very precise way, I like all!!!, I always enjoy the music with any one of them, of course that each one has its own " flavor " but that flavor always like me.
Right now I'm testing three MM cartridges: Empire EDR.9, Audiotechnica ATML 180-OCC and ADC Astrion. The Empire in the Micro Seiki MAX 282, the AT in the Satin unipivot and the Astrion in the Sumiko MDC800. I can tell you that these three ( extremely low price MM cartridges ) cartridges perform at the same level of many of my " big names " MC cartridges: I'm " startle " about, how comes ?: well this answer for other best time.
No, I don't take notes by hand, till to now everything is on my mind.
Yes, I have a lot of fun!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Andrew: I think it is time to try the Orpheus. Glad to hear that everything finally settle down.
Yes, Neil is very experienced about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
