Tracking issue with dynavector 20XL

Flyf...

The cartridge is still 'new'. Let it settle in for a few hundred hours befoe your run it through track 8 again. The suspension needs to settle in first.

D Visser

Kevin has stated many times that anti-skating is still needed and that the damper is not a substitute.

Absolutely correct. The only question is, "How much?".

Since the amount of skating force a stylus sees varies from record to record, and even from one place to another on the same record, the only possible answer is, "It depends".

Logic and our experience indicate that setting by ear listening to music should work best. No test record can claim to work better because no test record can predict how much skating force your next real record is going to generate.

We actually have a few (5% or less) records for which we change antiskate before playing. They are so dynamic a little extra is needed. On the other 95% a tiny reduction in antiskating brings out more harmonics and microdynamic shadings. This is really splittig hairs of course, and whether its worth it is a matter of systems, ears and tastes. For the sane majority, a setting just high enough to cleanly track their most dynamic LP would be fine.

Cheers

Psychicanimal,
Glad to hear the Creature is about to revive. Will there be a movie? ;-)

Not a movie, but a medieval saga!

Hey, the Creature's coming along...Kevin's just finished prototypes for tonearm rewiring terminals, a back mounted RCA & bottom plate for DIN connectors. Cardas tonearm wire will be standard in the mod.

Interesting question about the fluid damper. The TriPlanar's fluid damper looks very similar and operates on the same principle. However, while I know many TriPlanar owners I don't know a single one who actually uses the fluid damping. Everyone tries it of course, but its effects with every cartridge I've heard or heard about are entirely detrimental.

If the fluid damping gives you a net sonic gain that tells us our two arms are very different in the way they handle resonances. On my arm the fluid damping muffles microdynamics, harmonics, "air" and leading edge attacks. Those are what I listen for when fine tuning antiskate and VTF, so fluid damping WOULD make it harder to hear. On your arm, who knows? All you can do is try it.

As usual, I appreciate your valuable input. The situation with the 1200's tonearm is that is a cheaper version of the titanium EPA tonearm. We end up with a medium mass tonearm with ultra low friction bearings running loose. The 1200's damper actually improves microdynamics and low level decay retrieval. Kevin has stated many times that anti-skating is still needed and that the damper is not a substitute.

Here's Zaikesman's review of the damper in case you would like to read it:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&

From what you tell me it seems your tonearm's damper wouid be to use lower mass, higher compliance cartridges. I doubt people making such a quality arm would throw a damper just for kicks. Also, how much damping fluid in the trough is up to the user.

I'll get it dialed in...but now I'm unemployed and I need to make a rack to place that heavy Densen air suspension platform & granite slab.

***

Flyfisher,
Beware of strangers calling themselves "Teacher". Remember the DaVinci Code? ;-)

David,
Good to hear from you, and glad to help.

Dodgealum,
My TriPlanar's the same, as was my OL Silver before that. Trying to fine tune VTF by moving a massive counterweight could drive a person insane. Having a bunch of tiny, supplemental counterweights on hand makes it quick, simple and repeatable.

Note: They make O-rings in different thicknesses. Having thicker and thinner ones allows even finer tuning.

Caution: for the safety of your cantilever, lock your arm down before adding/removing rings.

Psychicanimal,
Glad to hear the Creature is about to revive. Will there be a movie? ;-)

Interesting question about the fluid damper. The TriPlanar's fluid damper looks very similar and operates on the same principle. However, while I know many TriPlanar owners I don't know a single one who actually uses the fluid damping. Everyone tries it of course, but its effects with every cartridge I've heard or heard about are entirely detrimental.

If the fluid damping gives you a net sonic gain that tells us our two arms are very different in the way they handle resonances. On my arm the fluid damping muffles microdynamics, harmonics, "air" and leading edge attacks. Those are what I listen for when fine tuning antiskate and VTF, so fluid damping WOULD make it harder to hear. On your arm, who knows? All you can do is try it.

Best to all,
Doug

Try this: toss the HFN record into a corner and play the most dynamic record you own with antiskating set to zero. Reduce VTF in tiny increments until the cartridge starts to mistrack (buzz) on the R channel. Now add just enough antiskate to eliminate the buzzing and bump VTF back up by a couple hundredths of a gram - no more. Play your favorite records. I'll wager you'll be surprised by the sonic improvement.

You know Doug, it seemed to me that going through all the intricate details oF VTF, VTA & then leaving the anti-skating to the band on the HFNRR records was missing something. Now that I'm into setting up my system after having it in storage for almost two years things are being looked fresh. Now that Kevin has come up with the prototypr RCA & DIN monting plates for ther 1200 I'm REALLY thinking how to extract the most out of the Creature.

When I'm ready I'll give your method a careful try. My only question is, will this work equally well when using a tonearm fluid damper?

There is a difference between knowing the path & walking the path. Where's HiFi Tommy?

***

"P.S. An easy way to make tiny, repeatable VTF adjustments on arms that lack a fine adjustment is to slip a few O-rings onto or off of the end stub".

I wish I'd thought of that--adjusting VTF with the Scout is nearly impossible. The slightest movement of the counterweight, even to adjust azmiuth (sp?) changes the downforce radically. I'll try the O-Rings and now see a reason to invest in a digital guage.

Thanks for your help

Always a pleasure reading your responses Doug. Thank you for the help as I had also the same issues/thoughts with my Scout and Dynavector 20X-L.

David

What an education!!! I feel like I'm back in school, and enjoying it. I will try the o rings and put that record AWAY.

Let me make sure I have this correct--the idea in using the test record is to try to get the buzzing the same in both channels--correct?

Correct, using whichever one of bands 6-9 on Side 1 causes just enough buzzing to be audible.

A BETTER way to use the HFN&RR record to adjust antiskating is to play the three, widely spaced "Tracking Test" bands on side two. Skating forces vary from outer to inner grooves, so using three widely spaced bands is superior to using just one. IF your cartridge buzzes on these bands (some won't), adjust antiskating until the buzzing is roughly equal L/R on all three bands. Very careful setups will have equal buzzing on the middle band and mirror-imaged buzzing on the inner and outer bands.

The BEST way to use the HFN&RR record is to support a stack of real records, to keep them from warping. Mine hasn't left its sleeve in over a year.

I think that is about what I have right now, which would explain why I am getting good sound despite all the buzzin goin on.

Sounds right to me!

Let me ask you a question--given the misdirections how did you figure out the answer?

Research here and on VA, setting up lots of cartridges, listening while thinking, thinking while listening. :-)

- An "antiskating" band at only one location is wrong (skating forces vary across the record)

- The amplitudes of those bands are far higher than real music (and since skating varies with stylus/groove friction, unnaturally high amplitues yield false results)

Antiskating impairs any cartridge's sonic performance. Just ask Harry Weisfeld. The best sound is obtained using the least amount necessary to prevent mistracking. Once I learned how to hear antiskate changes while listening to music those faulty test tracks became altogether useless.

Try this: toss the HFN record into a corner and play the most dynamic record you own with antiskating set to zero. Reduce VTF in tiny increments until the cartridge starts to mistrack (buzz) on the R channel. Now add just enough antiskate to eliminate the buzzing and bump VTF back up by a couple hundredths of a gram - no more. Play your favorite records. I'll wager you'll be surprised by the sonic improvement.

Cheers,
Doug

P.S. An easy way to make tiny, repeatable VTF adjustments on arms that lack a fine adjustment is to slip a few O-rings onto or off of the end stub. You can reliably adjust VTF by just a couple hundredths of a gram with this method, which I use every day. (... and Raul has watched me do it and heard the results!)

Doug:

This is very interesting since I spent considerable time trying (in vain) to "pass" each successively tougher test, primarily by playing with the anti-skate adjustment. This I did first by twisting and untwisting the tonearm lead (as per the original Scout manual) and then later by adjusting the weight on the anti-skate kit provided as an upgrade by VPI. (At one point I was playing with both the lead wire AND the weight, trying to get just the right combination of forces to counteract the mistracking I heard on tracks 7-9. I don't feel too stupid since I agree with you--the directions seem to lead one to try and eliminate the buzz through proper adjustment of the anti-skate bias. I'll now have to go back and try again with your approach. Let me make sure I have this correct--the idea in using the test record is to try to get the buzzing the same in both channels--correct? I think that is about what I have right now, which would explain why I am getting good sound despite all the buzzin goin on.

Let me ask you a question--given the misdirections how did you figure out the answer?

Thanks
Mark

Flyfisher,

You are misunderstanding the use of those tracks on the HFN&RR record. They are not "tests" that must be "passed". (This misunderstanding isn't your fault. The instructions that come with the record are nearly as faulty as those tracks themselves.)

With many cartridges, including your new Dyna, the only way to play track 8 (or 9!) cleanly is to increase VTF and/or anti-skate to very excessive levels. This does not indicate a flaw in your cartridge or setup. It indicates the tracks are doing what they were DESIGNED to do: MAKE your cartridge mistrack. The point of those tracks is to let you hear INCIPIENT mistracking so you can adjust anti-skating to equalize it across both channels.

While I strongly dislike those tracks due to several flaws in their methodology and implementation, if you INSIST on using them here's the proper way:

1) with antiskate at zero and VTF set at normal levels (for the cartridge) find the ONE track that causes SLIGHT mistracking (buzzing) in the R channel.

2) increase anti-skating until the buzzing is equal in both channels.

That's it. You're done. The HFN&RR record can do no more for your setup. Don't bother trying to play the more difficult tracks. They are of no use for this particular cartridge. The only track that matters is the ONE that initiates mis-tracking. Trying to "pass" more difficult tracks will lead to inaccurate setup.

Much better than any test record is learning how to adjust VTF and anti-skating by listening to music. The amount of each force required for optimum cartridge performance will be different (less) on real records than on test records with their artificially high amplitudes. I've set up a couple dozen cartridges in the last year. In no case did I use a test record, or wish that I had.

Doug

Thanks Dodgealum, I guess it must be something in the design of the cartridge. I've read here on the 'gon that some members have added 3 gram spacers to their arms with some Dynavector cartridges. I wonder if adding mass would help?

VPI suggests tracking that cartridge above the manufacturers figure. I can't find my notes but I believe I'm tracking my 20XM at around 2.375 (on a Scout). Call Mike at VPI and he will give you guidance. BTW, once you get it set up at the higher tracking force run the bias test again--you will probably get the same result. I tried everything including the anti-skate kit from VPI to resolve this to no avail. I'm not sure how much it matters, the table sounds great to me!

Thanks for the response Raul. No, I haven't had any problems in listening. If anything I am enjoying the sound on my second listening system.

Dear Flyfisher: 2.2 grs is the manufacturer limit to warranty that the coils were centered and that the cartridge suspension will work on target.
Don't worried about how it test on that test LP, the important subject is that you don't have that problem during LP playing and I think you can't have any problem with normal LP's.

Now, do you have problems with the normal playing LP's ?, if you don't then forget about that test.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.