Tracking error or ??


I was listening to my Lyra Kleos last night and on one of the most dynamic records that i own ( and best sounding) an Analogue Production Sonny Rollins Way out West LP; I noticed on the second side, which is very dynamic and has some serious high frequency extension, that there seemed to be a little distortion (or over loading) that i suspect is coming from the cartridge. The Kleos is tracking at the recommended 1.8 grams and my arm is usually pretty immune to miss-tracking ( as it uses a liquid bearing). Anyone else experience the same kind of thing with the Lyra's? I wonder if a higher tracking weight might be the answer, even though Lyra recommends an exact 1.8 grams?? 
daveyf

Showing 5 responses by mijostyn

Davyf, AJ considered The Work of Art to be his magnum opus and I have heard one. AJ tried to get me to buy it!
Now, as for your complete and total misunderstanding of the Kuzma 4 Point arm. They are in no way, shape or form similar to a unipivot. The Kuzma uses needle bearings, four of them that produce a solid low friction 2 axis bearing system. The vertical bearing is exactly like what Origin Live does in its better arms. It is the horizontal bearing that is special. The vertical bearing platform hangs from needle #3 which engages the top of the center post. Then in front of the post is a slot that engages needle #4. Since the weight of the tonearm engages the platform in front of the post needle #4 is force back into that slot. Needle #4 prevents any torsional instability. I can only move through an arc of 70 degrees which is more than enough to play a record. There are breakdown pictures of the 4 point bearing if you are having trouble envisioning it. It is not easy to describe. I have installed 4 Point 9's on two Sotas with excellent results and it will do great on an LP 12. I would be very surprised if you did not immediately notice an improvement. 

grk, there's that listening thing again. You can not trust any single individual's listening skills. Regardless of the way you think that arm sounds it is a more defective design than even air bearing straight line trackers. Forget about what your ears are telling you. Get a better arm and they will be even happier. Tonearms are very simple devices. There job is to hold the cartridge perfectly rigidly except in two directions, up and down, side to side. If it does not it is automatically disqualified from being a decent tonearm. Even the possibility of movement in another direction is not acceptable. After this are the finer points of good tonearm design, geometry, bearing design, anti skating, resonance characteristics and such. There is certainly room for creativity and original thinking. Both Frank Kuzma and Frank Schroder are great examples and both have designed some klunkers. 

Never be ashamed of buying a bad piece of equipment. I have had my fair share. That is how you learn. I was lucky early on getting a lot of exposure working in the business. But, I let myself get waltzed into some pretty stupid stuff the highlight of which was a tonearm. The Transcriptors Vestigial Tonearm a very strong contender for the worst tonearm ever made.
@daveyf, The problem is that friction pulling the tonearm along it's long axis is not constant but varies depending on groove velocity (modulation). Thus there is going to be a tendency for the arm to move in that direction. How much it does would depend on VTF, the mass of the cartridge and the velocity. Does it move at all? I do not know. But it can if enough force is applied and that is enough for me. 
I talked with AJ on several occasions. In his mind the hanging suspension was vastly superior. You see this in the Work of Art and Inspiration turntables. I have no idea what happened with the Transcendence. It is not in keeping with AJ's design philosophy in a number of ways. He also would never have stuck his name on the turntable. https://robbreport.com/gear/audio/slideshow/10-design-minded-turntables-clearaudio-vpi-eg17/aj-conti...
@daveyf , sorry to be so slow getting back, That bell hanging down from the pivot is added mass. It is an attempt to lower the resonance point in the various degrees of movement. The problem is that no filter is brick wall. Then to minimize the ringing and amplitude of the resonance the bell hangs in a pool of damping fluid. The wand itself is flimsy. We know from history now that wand stiffness is an important issue. Wands with a wider diameter are stiffer. Arm tubes that also change diameter are a further improvement.
The longitudinal axis is the one in which the arm moves forward and backward along the long axis of the wand. Even a unipivot arm does not do this. A cartridge has to be held rigidly in all directions save two. This is the very basic requirement for a tonearm. I do not like Schroder's reference arm for the same reason. But it was developed early in his career and he has since made up for it with the CB, LT and apparently the soon to be released Soundsmith Alto arm. 
If you go for a Basis try to find a Debut Vacuum. The original suspension was the best one but it was a more complicated and expensive turntable to build. It seems after AJ died Basis has taken a step backwards. AJ lived right around the corner from me. AJ and David Fletcher were good friends. David encouraged AJ to use his suspension design. AJ was a cost no option guy and David wanted to make a turntable for the masses. David also talked AJ into adding vacuum clamping. The Debut Vacuum IMHO is AJ's finest hour. 
DaveyF, pivot "chatter" is an illusion created by people who are trying to make excuses for unipivot arms. Bearings in proper adjustment are preloaded. There is no clearance at all and no room for "chatter" 
The Well Tempered arm is an interesting design, clever to a degree but like the unipivot basically flawed. A proper pivoted arm has two degrees of freedom vertical and horizontal. A unipivot has 3 degrees as it is free in torsion. The Well Tempered arm has 4 degrees as it adds torsion and longitudinal motion. Each free degree has a resonance associated with it.
The Well Tempered arm tries to deal with this by adding mass and fluid damping. These are crutches for flawed design. A properly matched cartridge tonearm pair should never require damping or added mass which adds inertia. It takes energy to move a tonearm through damping. It is like adding more friction and energy to overcome inertia. This energy comes from the record groove and can be seen on an oscilloscope as unnecessary cantilever motion. The cantilever moves because the tonearm does not, producing low frequency garbage, distorting the frequencies above. In really bad set ups you can hear it as a warble.

@tooblue, karl_desch is moving from a unipivot to a two axis arm with a Lyra cartridge. Follow what he has to say about it. it. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/kuzma-4points-and-lyra-carts


Millercarbon is correct as lewm has indicated. 

I hate to be a sow's a-s but that is not a good arm for a Lyra and I think you should replace it when you get the opportunity. If you do not want to believe me just ask Johnathan Carr. He is a very up front guy and frequently visits this forum. In ways the Well Tempered arm is worse than a uni pivot arm.