I am putting together a new 2 channel system! I am looking for a new pair of speakers and my budget is around $7000. This thread has to deal only with the Totem Acoustic Forest Signatures!!!!!! I have always been a fan of Totem Acoustic and love the Totem sound. I have owned almost all their speakers except for the element series and the Forest Signatures. I have been trying to find reviews on the signatures but can't find anything useful so I am turning to the Audiogon crowd.
Has anyone demoed these or does anyone currently own a pair or owned a pair in the past that can give some useful insight? I don't listen to my music at high volumes and my music mainly consists of R&B from the 50's till now.
The speakers will be hooked up to the following - Hegel H360 integrated - Hegel Cdp4a CD player - Audioquest Wild Blue Yonder interconnects - Audioquest Wild Wood speaker cable - Audioquest Wel Signature power cables - Shunyata MPC12A power conditioner but looking to upgrade to their new Denali series.
Hello scthom - What speaker cable and interconnects are you using with the Hegel H160? Sources??
I’ve had my Forests for a similar length of time as you and have used half a dozen different amps with them over those years. Three of those amps make up the current "fleet". One is a Hegel H200 (200 wpc). I posted comments about Forests and power earlier in this thread. I could try to describe how the sound when driven by the 400 wpc Taranis differs from that with the Hegel (the Hegel is definitely warmer) but power is only a part of that story. One amp is Class A/B the other Class D. Excellent sound with the 20 wpc First Watt F7 underscores that there is something besides power at work shaping the sound.
All that as preamble to say, before you opt for more power - which might or might not get you where you want to go (depends in part on how the amp is voiced) - consider experimenting with the overall elevation and/or rake of the Forests. For a simple rake adjustment just remove the rear "balls" but leave the front one in place. I also found Paul Laudati’s Clear Day Double Shotgun speaker cable provided a big step change over what I’d been using (Morrow Audio SP4) in resolution and clarity while fleshing out the sound in a marked way. Currently using Cardas Parsec cabling.
I’m not trying to get into a dispute with owners who hold that more power is always the better option for the Forests. In general, I’d have to agree with that (the F7 being the exception to the rule, I suppose). Cleaner sound, deeper and better-controlled bass, improved image definition, greater clarity (the usual suspects) is what I heard moving away from 60-80 wpc tube amps to the current gear. But was the improvement simply a function of more watts or also the difference between tubes and SS? Worth noting I run all 3 amps (even the Hegel) with a 6SN7 tube pre-amp. Good luck in your pursuit.
Thanks so much for your input! I'm running Tidal/Roon through a Lumin D1 streamer with an upgraded power supply. It's connected to my Hegel with a Tellurium Q Black XLR cable. I have recent model Shunyata power cables with an older model Hydra 6. My speaker cables may be a weak link. They are Analysis Plus Oval Nines which are about 10 years old. I really liked the improvement when I added them to my system but they may be due for an upgrade. I've considered moving up to the Big Silver Ovals, bit was unsure about the synergy of the silver wire with the metal tweeter. Reviews say that they don't sound like a typical silver cable.
Thanks for the suggestion about the Cardas Parsecs, they were not on my radar. I may see if I can borrow a pair from the Cable Company.
Finally, I did remove the rear balls to change the rake of the speaker and I like the result. It seems to expand the sound stage.That's something that never occurred to me. Thanks again for your suggestions.
Hello again scthom - Just to be clear, the Parsecs were only mentioned by way of full disclosure. They might or might not contribute to the sound you are looking for. They are part of the new "generation" of Cardas wire...not as warm - a little more neutral - than "vintage" Cardas wire but still very much a Cardas house sound (or so i think).
Paul Laudati's Clear Day Double Shotgun (all silver) speaker cable was what I wanted to suggest. Paul did offer a 30 day in-home/money back trial on them. I write "did" because he has recently experienced some very serious health issues. I don't know if he's back making cables. If not, but you can find some of his used, well worth trying out.
Taking advantage of borrowing from The Cable Co. is definitely a good way to go. If you call, the sales guy can consult their database (customer derived info) and make recommendations for you to try based on your gear, budget and sound preference. Maybe the newer Black Mesh Oval 9 is something to try out? I've not heard Analysis Plus wire at all but they enjoy a good reputation.
One thing you can try right now (assuming you are using a single run of cable with jumpers and the Forests aren't bi-wired) is use the Nordost diagonal speaker connection method. That is, attach Red (+) to the low frequency + post and Black (-) to the upper frequency - post. See if you hear any increase in upper frequency information using this approach. [Just fyi, Audioquest recommends the opposite when single-wiring bi-wireable speakers...Red to upper + post; Black to lower - post.] If you're interested, I should be able to find a link(s) to relevant info.
Removing the rear balls from the Totem claws would be another easy thing to try. See if it gets you more detail.
ghosthouse You Were right! "You never know what your missing till it's gone." The Mapleshade plinths are keepers. Full stop.
I taped the floor with painters tape and removed the blocks and played the previous cd. It was immediatly evident they were missing. The Mapleshade blocks expanded the sound. The bass which I originally thought was missing on the blocks was back. It was muddy and confused in comparison when the speakers were on the carpet.
Dave_b "Cohesion".... I didn't think the soundstage could get better but has. I suppose the carpet muddied the sound. High frequency energy is smooooth. It was good before, much better now. Liquid mids!
Listening to Crowded House, Woodface. Great production. Huge soundstage. Vocals are magical on the Signatures! Such great harmonies. And the harmonica on "There goes God" is the room, literally.
Please update us when you hear from The Cable Company. I'm very interested in their recommendations for your system. With my system, they suggested Wireworld, Kimber Kable and Cardas, (Current Cardas models).
Hello everyone! Johnny Lang, Lie To Me Gov’t Mule, High and Mighty Dave Meniketti, On the Blue Side- lovin "Can’t do Nothin’ Right! Gary Moore, Bad for you Baby "Umbrella Man"! Joe Bonamossa, Sloe Gin
Also a Totem update. I saw a You Tube link with Vince, CEO. He stated that Totem is releasing a 2 way "Powered" Bookshelf Speaker. Cost is going to be around $1000. It doesn't show on their website. Email or Facebook or call Totem for more details.
At The Rock last night...BTS!! Awesome show with a positive message. Don’t think my Forest Signatures could quite handle the dynamics of their live show!
Just posting an update. Finally ordered a set of Forests in satin white! Regular version though. I went a little different route with the amp. Getting a deal on a NAD M32 master series integrated. Its 180wpc rather than the previous amps 150wpc, which I was able to return. Should be a better amp then their regular series amps. It's reviewed very well anyways. I couldn't afford the signatures :( But with a little bit better amplification then I previously had I think the forests will be great for me! I know i'm flying blind on these as I haven't heard either but the totem dealer took my Sonus Fabers on trade(which is awesome because I tried and couldn't sell them) and the NAD M32 is one of the only integrated's on the market that has the availability of 4k hdmi. I'm using this as a 2 channel setup with a tv, which was a requirement. So, any recommendations on budget speaker cables? like in the 100-200 range? I have been recommended signal cable from a very knowledgeable gentlemen on this thread but looking for any other opinions or ideas as well! Thanks!
Let me add mine to dave_b's. Hope you are happy with them. Just be patient during break in. Follow Totem's guidance on this. Don't over drive them. The bass will be MIA for a good while. But is one of their strong points when they are fully broken in.
I've had a pair of Forests for over 10 years. Not tired of them yet. They scale well, which is to say upgrade electronics and cabling...they'll reflect those improvements.
As far as speaker cable, your budget will go furthest with used. Check out US Audio Mart. Brand-wise, in addition to Signal Cable, Blue Jeans Cable is often cited as a good starting point (I've not used it). Other high value brands to consider: Clear Day Audio, Audio Art, & Virtue Audio. Check out Stereo Mojo for other recommendations.
Congrats! The Forest are great speakers. I'll second ghosthouse's guidance on the break in process. It has taken my Signatures 150-200 hours to come around. Don't over drive them. You'll be tempted to. But they will reward you. I had a pair of fully broken in standard Forest for about a week for review. The bass is taught, solid and plentiful. Work on placement but be patient. As they are breaking in, changes in placement may need to be made.
Speaker cable? Straightwire, Wireworld and Audioquest also make decent entry level cables. I would try to get biwire but if you can't, at least get some higher quality jumpers to replace the stock Totem wires.
I've upgraded my speaker cable. This week I changed from Audioquest Gibralter to Wireworld Eclipse 7. This cable is massive. 10 awg per polarity. It Sounds amazing! Highly recommended for your Totems.
Just poking around and happily stumbled on this great thread. I’ve had my black gloss Forest Signatures for about a year, and they are far and away the best balanced, most satisfying speakers I have owned in 40+ years in this hobby (including Wilson Watt3/Puppy2, Quad esl-63 and Vandersteen Quatros). I’m running mine with a Plinius Hautonga (200wpc) integrated, which is a much better match for them than my previous electronics (VTL MB-125s with Audible Illusions m3a pre - not too shabby in their own right). So I definitely agree that the Forest Sigs benefit from lots of clean power.
I’m using all MIT in the signal path, including CVTerminator biwire speaker cables. I’m intrigued by the earlier comments about going single wire with jumpers, but my cables are dedicated bi-wire so that experiment will have to wait for another day.
Just wanted to mention that that you can fine tune the sound by changing the black balls under the skid plates. I tried both brass and carbon steel - the brass balls give a very smooth, warm presentation, but I ultimately settled on the hardened carbon steel. Not quite as warm as the brass, but more dynamic and extended. In my room, the metal balls provided more transparency and an even cleaner top end than the oem black rubber balls (this was Vince B’s suggestion, btw, not my own). I also placed a small bdr disc under each, all of which sits on 1.75” maple plinths.
So very glad to see there are others out there who have found this under-appreciated speaker. IMHO, given the superb parts quality, flawless fit and finish and, most importantly, the glorious sound, it would be a bargain at twice the price!
Thanks, N! Trying to keep a low internet profile these days, but this seems like a nice forum to share some set up ideas and listening experiences with these great speakers which, like you guys, seem to me to be under-represented out there.
Welcome strat1117! My experiences are similar to yours...the Sig’s are special indeed. I have found the MIT cables to be an extremely musical choice as well. Keep on posting and enjoy the music 🎶
Hey dave_b! How’s it going? Did you ever get a chance to listen to Black Light Syndrome, featuring Terry Bosio, Tony Levin and Steve Stevens? It is a recording masterpiece, am I right ghosthouse?
strat1117,
Thanks for sharing your system and setup info. The Plinius has good upfront wattage and 40 amps of peak current. Should make for a good combination with the Totems. How’s the presentation on the Plinius? I’ve read that it comes across as warm, not solid state sounding.
What source are you using?
Any service issues? Ive considered the Plinius Hiato but I don’t have a local dealer any longer.
I found your comments on the choice of decoupling spheres interesting and I feel that the hard - inert rubber balls overall presentation to be warm also. In fact my whole system tends to be warm due to the high bias class A/B components. And the Cardas Golden Reference are warm by nature. But your intel on the different decoupling spheres has given me reason to experiment with other options, thanks!
Recently adding the Mapleshade 18x15x2 plinths has opened up the soundstage and added more articulation to the low frequencies.
The new Wireworld Eclipse speaker cables offer more micro and macro detail and sonic transparency. They have a neutral and natural balanced sound.
I’m with you guys. Totem makes many excellect products. The Forest Signatures are beautiful both visually and sonically.
Thanks, Dave_b, I just read your post in another thread and your story leading back to the totems does, indeed, sound similar to mine (although my earlier totem experience was with a pair of pre-signature, biwire model 1s, which I still have in my basement).
Nutty - After almost 20 years with an AI preamp and VTL amps, the Plinius sounds very neutral to me, neither overtly yin as described by some reviewers nor yang as described by others. The best compliment I can pay any audio component is that it never draws any attention to itself, and that has been my experience with the Hautonga - I don’t hear it adding or subtracting anything of its own. It has more than enough power in reserve for my small-medium sized space (~180 sq ft). N, I don’t know where you are located, but if you call Thomas at New York Sound & Vision, he can hook you up with plinius. I’ve found him to be knowledgeable, reliable and competitive on pricing. I haven’t had any service issues in the 10-11 months that I have the plinius - it sure seems like a bullet-proof brick to me. I went to it for the express purpose of downsizing and getting away from the hands on of tubes, but without making any sonic compromises. I feel like it is a huge success on all counts, exactly what I was looking for and a perfect match for the Forest Sigs. (I did not feel that way about the vtls, good as they are, the totems needed more grip on the bottom). I have zero tolerance for any hint of midrange glare or treble brightness/harshness, so it is possible that what sounds neutral to me would sound warm to someone else but, as I said, I honestly do not detect a particular sonic signature of any kind from the plinius through the totems.
Analog front end is an SME 10/IV with a Lyra Kleos cartridge and a vintage Cotter mk2L sut, cd is via BAT VK-D5 with hdcd and diy ‘six-pak’ upgrade. I also listen to Spotify via an audioengine B1 Bluetooth receiver/24-bit dac which sounds surprisingly good for its $189 price tag. It doesn’t have the detail or palpable 3D presence of my other front end components, but it is perfectly enjoyable - you can listen to it all day and it won’t make an unpleasant sound.
Anyway, to get back on track, I found the Forest Sigs are revealing enough to make changes in upstream components clearly audible, they’ll let you know exactly what a new component is doing right or wrong. Even power cord changes, which used to be of little interest to me, became much more noticeable with these speakers. I dealt with it by going with all one manufacturer. I personally chose Marigo, but there are plenty of contenders. While it may seem more obvious for signal cables, I was very surprised by the huge increase in overall coherence when I stopped randomly mixing and matching a/c cables. Again, the Forest Sigs made the difference(s) easy to hear.
Be very careful when you experiment with hard decoupling balls - the rear of the speakers will literally be on ball bearings. I used the very thin bdr discs to help keep them in place, with a nice little boost in overall resolution as a bonus. I think the current bdr “lm discs” discs are thicker; I don’t know what effect they might have on the sound of speaker (in my experience, the effect of adding bdr is usually good), but they would raise the speaker enough that you would probably have to re-experiment with tilt back if you were to use them (you’ll have to do that anyway - the hard balls don’t give the way the soft black ones do, so you’ll need to raise the front a hair to maintain your tilt back).
Likewise, @strat1117 ... welcome. Enjoyed reading your comments about the Sigs. Many of your comments (e.g., audibility of upstream changes) apply to the non-Sig Forests as well.
Chiming in now in response to Nutty's recommendation of Black Light Syndrome. I agree it is a very well recorded rock album. Standout tracks musically and sonically for me: Duende & Book of Hours. Definitely worth a listen. BLS as well as Dangerous Situation (same artists) are both on Spotify.
Thanks for the Intel on the Plinius. And nice system! I have Plinius on my short list of integrated amps to audition if I get the opportunity.
Dave_b,
Pulled up King Crimson on Tidal. Excellent selection, thanks. What else ya got?
The Wireworld Eclipse speaker cables are working well with the Signatures. The Audioquest Gibralter’s were bright in comparison. The vocals have more bloom. The placement and soundstage are much more believable.
Hi, I know you guys have been recommending more power but do you think a Simaudio ACE all-in-one at 50wpc would be OK with the Totem Forests(non signature)? I emailed Totem and they said 50wpc would absolutely suffice if the listening room is not too large, which it isn't. I'm trying to find a all in one type player in the 2k'ish range and it seems to be difficult to find. I had said before that I was going with the NAD M32 but that deal passed me up(was a refurbished unit). This is for a 2 channel system with a connected TV and also needs to have network streaming like Tidal. I was originally looking at the M32 because it has available HDMI slots but I guess i can just hook the TV up to the Simaudio or whatever else is recommended via optical. I know everyone recommends auditions but unless you live in a big city that has exactly what you looking for available and the shop is cool enough to let you audition it, that's not really possible. So for the 2k'ish range, what do you think?
Hi nutty, right now not much. I had a NAD receiver powering Sonus Faber Venere 3.0's but traded those in on the forests. Have some cables by some company no longer in business. So pretty much working with a clean slate on a budget. Room is 12x25ft wide. This is an open kitchen looking out to living area type room. Kitchen is off to the left of living area, no wall in between. So the listening area where the speakers would be would be more like 12x15ft of that. Hope that makes sense. Its just going to be a 2channel/tv setup. Would like to have internet streaming(spotify/tidal) and be able to connect to TV so TV plays through speakers. But, i'm on a budget, so i need some decent amplification and cables. I've been recommended signal cable and clear day shotgun cables which i will probably get. Just having hard time finding a good amplifier in my budget of 2k(ish) that fits the above criteria.
Well somebody must have heard my frustration. Just like that a refurbished NAD M32 popped up for the first time in a couple months. So I picked it up! You guys are good luck! Thanks!
Stumbled on this discussion today. This thread is what I used to love about internet audio discussion! Great info based on actual experience and not a negative Nancy in the bunch.
I am also a huge Totem fan. Scored original Forests a few tears ago and have not had the upgrade bug since. Simply exactly the sound I prefer from bass to mid and highs. I am sure the Sigs and upgraded amplification would impress me even more but for my room and on my budget, Forests driven by a Roksan K2 (125wpc) and Teac 503 DAC is more musically involving than anything I have owned. That is saying a lot.
Has anyone compared with the Model 1 sigs by chance?
Saluti, Lampone. Ho provato a tradurre la tua nota del 1 Dicembre usando Google Traduttore. Spero sia comprensibile. Possiedo solo le Foreste originali. Impossibile commentare il valore del costo maggiore per le Signature. Forse qualcun altro può.
Using Google Translate. Lampone’s Dec 1 posting (Italian to English):
"Thank you for posting! I have the Forest standard and I would like to go to the Signature ... The price difference is 2500 € ... Are the Signature so superior .... ??? Greetings to everyone! Ciao"
My response to Lampone... Greetings, Lampone. I tried to translate your December 1 note using Google Translate. I hope it’s understandable. I own only the original Forests. Can not comment on the higher cost value for Signature. Maybe someone else can.
Ciao di nuovo, Lampone. La mia amica Nutty (proprietaria di Forest Signatures) ha qualche input per te. Sottolinea che nessuno può rispondere per un altro se vale il prezzo più alto per le Signature. Solo le tue orecchie e la tua economia personale possono affrontarlo. Nutty raccomanda in primo luogo di considerare se quei soldi extra sarebbero spesi meglio ottimizzando gli attrezzi che supportano le Forest standard. (So che le mie Forests rispondono sempre bene agli aggiornamenti nella catena di distribuzione che li alimenta). Se non disponi di dispositivi audio per spendere soldi, e se il tuo sistema sta estraendo tutte le Forest standard da dare, quindi considera l’upgrade dei tuoi altoparlanti alle Signature. Più hai ottimizzato il tuo sistema con le Forest standard, più beneficerai degli aggiornamenti trovati nelle delle Forest Signature.
Above as per Google translate of the following: Hello again, Lampone. My friend Nutty (who owns Forest Signatures) has some input for you. He points out that no one can answer for another whether the higher price for Signatures is worth it. Only your ears and personal economy can address this. Nutty recommends first consider whether that extra money would be better spent optimizing the gear supporting your standard Forests. (I know my Forests always respond well to upgrades in the equpiment chain feeding them). If you have no audio gear to better spend money on, and if your system is extracting all the standard Forests have to give, then consider upgrading your speakers to the Signatures. The more you have optimized your system with standard Forests, the more you will benefit from the upgrades found in the Forest Signatures.
Merry Christmas! Messing around with speaker cable and wanted some input. I’ve been happily using CVT Terminator 1 biwire for almost a year without even thinking about it, but based upon comments earlier in this thread and elsewhere, I decided to experiment with single wiring using Shotgun S1 and a nice set of aq jumpers I had laying around doing nothing. Counterintuitive as it may be, I do feel like the soundstage is bigger, especially deeper, and bass is even better than it was when biwired, BUT, I’ve been driving myself nuts between the aq jumpers and the plain silver bent paper clip jumpers supplied by Totem AND, more to the point, between going with both speaker leads into the woofer inputs, jumping to the tweeter inputs (which gives me that dark sexy sound I crave), and using the totem recommended diagonal (which is clearly more accurate/better balanced, but seems to lose a little of that special “magic”). I realize I’m picking nits at this point, but as they say, the devil is in the details. I’d love to hear your experiences if you experimented with the different wiring schemes on your sigs, before I take the easy way out and just go back to biwiring.
Mcfavre4 - welcome to the thread. I have quite a bit of experience with a pair of pre signature, biwire model 1s. They were my dad’s speakers and I borrowed them from him when my vandersteens went down (for the third time). My several months with the model 1s is what led me to purchase the Forest Signature - I wanted what the model 1s were doing, only more, bigger and deeper. The Forest Sigs seemed to be the perfect choice, I borrowed my dealer’s demo pair and, well, he never got them back. So from my perspective, if you like the Model 1, you will LOVE the Forest Signatures. I know that was just a generalized love letter for the Forest Sigs, so please let me know if you have a more specific question I didn’t answer.
As far as my post from yesterday, right now I have the Shotgun S1 hooked up to the woofers and the CVT Terminator 1 hooked up to the tweeters - i.e., a true bi wire configuration, taking advantage of the Plinius’ double output jacks. While I preferred single wire with jumpers to the internally biwired cable, going to a true biwire configuration was an eye opener. Everything opens up, the back wall disappears and all hint of strain or distortion just disappears (talking here about the very low level stuff that you don’t even know is there until it is gone). I’m not suggesting that it makes any sense to do what I’m doing with the level of cable I’m doing it with, it’s almost certainly overkill, but one of the benefits of being in this hobby for over 40 years is that you learn how to sniff out a keeper, so you accumulate some good stuff over time - why not put it to good use? What I am saying, and this comes right out of the vandersteen playbook, is that, in my experience, the sound you get with true biwiring is incomparably better than what you can get with the internally biwired cable to which many of us default for our biwirable speakers. Indeed, for me, in my system with the Forest Sigs, the internally biwired cable was the worst option, easily bettered by the single wire with aq jumpers, but even that delicious combo was again easily bested when I removed the jumpers and added a fully separate run of similar cable to the tweeter. Right now I’m thinking it can’t get any better.
Audiophile...heal thy self! Good job answering your own question NSC BREAKING IN A NEW PC!!! Anticables Reference...sounds very sexy and warm on my Krell Vanguard. Don’t think I could stand a more Class A sound than what I’m hearing now.
I've owned the Mani-2s for years and love them. The base extension and detail is great. The buying decision at the time came down to Mani-2s and the Forest and the decision was a no brainer. I recently demoed Mani-2s next to the Forest Signatures at local dealer and there is a stark difference in base extension, detail and sound stage. I had to pull the trigger and now own both. Both are power hungry and the Krells and Mac tubes are up to the challenge.
Amps tube or solid state All that is neded is a Quality Amp 50 Watts! I will take a high quality 50 Watt over a 500 watt all day long. Be aware, there are high quality 500 watt amps out there, too. Both $$$ but worth it......
FORESTs demand a lot of “grunt” to permit them to perform at their max.that means high- current and lotsa amps delivery. WPC specs by themselves mean nothing.
(1) pair them with high-current, high-end , solid-state amp only
(2) Do not pair them with tube amps
I owned TOTOTEM FORESTs before in a prior system . I simultaneously owned their ARROs, so I know their strengths and warts very well.
With the FORESTs, I had to upgrade the amp to a S/S bi-amped rig ( not bi-wire) with a high-end integrated amp paired with a matched spec stablemate power amp, just to get them to perform at their true max potential.
my BFF amigo audio friend borrowed them to test-drive them in his top strata high-end CARY tube amp system . In brief: just plain yuk! Comparatively, they were flat and lifeless until he pushed the volume knob to a 2 o’clock position on the volume knob . At which point they were quickly irritating, and predicating a dial-back to a listenable level. But alas, back to no dynamics, flat, et al and a poor match for a low(er) level listening
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