Top notch speakers with their own sub

I'd agree with the post which suggests separate subs to get the full-monty effect in specific rooms with various responses to low frequency sound waves. One of the finest effects I've heard in that respect has been the satellite sub system offered by Audiokinesis. This system offers seamless integration of subs in the most challenging of rooms, and the effect is astounding. The system is called the Planetarium System and is available in two forms.

Nor can you afford having the base coming from somewhere else but the primary speakers. At least with home theater, incoherance is more tolerable.

I would take exception to your position. I can only touch on a few points that may explain; Sub level bass is non-directional and can be integrated, sometimes far more effectively, when produced from a point outside of the main speakers housing. The soundwaves at that level are much slower and longer than the others produced by your main speakers. I think room nodes have tremendous potential to wreak havoc with bass reproduction and in doing so have a detrimental affect on other parts of the range and generally in the natural presentation of the sound and timing. I'm by no means an expert...look to experts in the field for far more information than I could ever provide. From my own listening to various systems (my own, friends, and at shows) the best effects I've heard have come from satellite systems - that's not to say that speakers with integrated subs cannot do deep bass very well too - I have heard the PBN Montana's mentioned above by their representative (?) and they produced thunderous bass, practically to the point of distraction, but very effective. Rattle your fillings bass. I would remind you again that your room will have a profound effect on how that bass is delivered to your ears where you sit and listen. With the subs attached to the mains your only potential for adjustments are positioning of the (large) main speakers, and or room treatments (which may be a good idea regardless). Optimal position for the sub may not necessarily be the optimal position for the mains. The best (most natural) integration I've ever heard has been in Satellite systems with 2 or more subs that are separate from the mains and not always positioned near the mains. The Audiokinesis approach uses 4 subs placed asymmetrically around the room to cancel out room nodes. No association and I don't own Duke's speakers, but would certainly consider a set in the future.

The word is "bass", not "base", by the way.

I will admit not knowing much about bass equalization. All I know is that independent subs for home theater has this phase adjustment that does not work well at all. I can definitely hear where the bass comes from, despite the common claimed for non-directional effect. With just a brief look at Audiokinesis, I don't know the details. Can these 4 subs be integrated into any full size speakers? Or is this the case that you have to buy their main speakers as well?

I hear you, Spatine. Setting up subs right can be tricky and I think most folks don't have the patience for it. The tendency is to set them up in whatever is the most convenient spot in the room, with the settings juiced so they are always audible and thus justify the purchase. I've found the better integration comes in setting up where you don't even notice them, but you are aware of their presence in those really deep moments of the music - that's exactly what they are for after all. Duke does sell his satellites separately (I think he calls them "The Swarm" when sold that way). I've only heard them with Duke's speakers so I could not comment as to how well or how easily they integrate with other speakers, but the principal he's based the design is very compelling and it sure sounded wonderful in the room at The Show that I heard them in. You can contact him through his website. He is a member of this forum as well. The other way to go would be with two conventional subs like JL Fathoms or Gothams (excellent subs), but you would have to have the patience to set them up properly or hire a local dealer or installer, or alternatively find a knowledgeable friend who might help you. If your subs are making themselves apparent in the way you describe then they likely are not set up right. If you want to skip the 'hassle' of setting up a sub, and prefer to just get something that is integrated into the mains, I think you can certainly find something that will make you happy among suggestions here, as well as other offerings out there. I would just reiterate that those solutions are not the best and most natural sounding in my own experience, when it comes to low bass and integrating a full range in a listening room. If your budget is $15K and you are looking at all-in-one full range speakers that do bass very well, my favorites have been Hansen's Prince which you just might find used for a bit above that price if you're very lucky. TAD Pioneer's Ref 1 was also outstanding in integrating a full range, as is Daedelus Ulysses speaker. None of these uses an integrated sub, but all have a very natural integration of their low-end. I've heard Wilson speakers on a number of occasions and they've never grabbed me as something I'd want to drop that kind of money on. Avalon's floorstanders also do a wonderful job of integrating the full range, and you may be able to find their excellent Indras in your price range used. Again, do check out Duke's Planetarium offerings and write to him for his own take on bass, subs, etc. He really does a great job and at fairly reasonable costs which I believe fall into your budget (I think the Planetarium Beta with his larger full-range speakers is around $10K). Duke's a great fellow too.

Good luck!

Hey Duke (or anyone else who cares to comment) - Is a flat response always necessarily an ideal target? I can understand addressing major dropouts at the sweet spot, certainly. When we go attend a concert the folks on the mixing board aren't getting a flat response from the room, are they? So if we're just talking about bringing the intent of the sound engineer / producer's work into our listening room with the least coloration/distortion, I expect that would lean towards the flat response, but could that also, for any reason, tend to sound any more or less engaging than a response that is more typical of most rooms (ie peaky)? Just curious what your take on that might be. Certainly if the Planetarium system speaks to this end it is a very convincing voice for that approach. I just wondered if that was the ultimate goal, or is that only a shade of something broader in what you are trying to achieve? What occurred to me as extraordinary about what you've achieved, at least in the room I heard, was a very natural and seamless integration of the low-end that did not call attention to itself as such, it was simply there at one end of the spectrum, yet was unmistakable as such. What I've objected to in some other approaches is that you become very aware of the low end to where it becomes distracting. I don't know whether this is due to overemphasis, room nodes, or some other imbalance. So is a flat response always the goal? Or?

Given the investment you are prepared to make, and your reasonable expectations of a significant improvement, why don't you take the time to go to RMAF in the Fall and listen to some of the stuff suggested here as well as many other alternatives and see what's out there in your budget. You may find that your MTS are worth hanging onto, but you might also enjoy the trip and the show. I don't think you'll find a Wilson Maxx for $15K but you can always save your pennies.

This has been a very interesting discussion with a lot of useful information. Thanks to those who participated, and thank you, Spatine, for initiating it, even if it wasn't necessarily the direction you intended. Now I have to figure out a way to get an elevated subwoofer module past my wife! "It's just a little nook shelf, Love - don't you remember you asked for more built in storage?!" Hmmm, I don't think it's gonna' fly with her (pun not intended). Monofilament? Trap door in the ceiling?