Time Phase/Coherence-Vandy 5A vs. SL M-1


A couple of questions/comments:

I have had the opportunity to recently audition both the Vandersteen 5A and Soundlab M-1 speakers. I thought they were both excellent speakers.

1. I have read quite a bit about time and phase coherence in speakers. How important is this parameter in a loudspeaker?

2. Are Soundlab M-1 speakers time and phase coherent? From what I remember reading, Richard Vandersteen did not think panel speakers could be time and phase coherent.

Thanks.
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Showing 2 responses by bigtee

Planars do have problems that are measurable. However, all speakers are a trade off in one way or another.
Refering to the Soundlab, If you look at the transfer function and impulse response graph, it is fairly easy to see what Richard was talking about. These speakers do smear the signal over an extended time frame. They also artificially produce spatial effects by the dipole radiation pattern(they store and release energy from the stretched edge clamped diaphragm) with energy bouncing of the front wall behind the speaker. This is why a lot of people like planars, they here more "Ambience" but it's not real.
I am not a speaker guru, but I can read and interpret measurements.
As I said, every speaker has problems and the idea is to not create more but solve the ones that exist. Ultimately, it is what sounds best to you.
I certainly would not want to get into a dispute with Richard Vandersteen or any "Real" designer for that matter. They know the weakness and strengths of all designs and each chooses a path. When Vandersteen started out, he wanted to mimic a Quad because back in the 70's, the ESL63 was the speaker that defined midrange. He wanted to create a "Full" range speaker with that same majic in the mids without the drawbacks. Times change and technologies move forward.
My one last statement would be that if, I "Had" to pick a planar, the Soundlab would be at the top of my list. In my opinion, it gets more right than the others.
After reading Larry's post, just a few questions based on the information presented in the same. Doesn't the Soundlab exibit comb filtering do to the different path lengths from the diaphragm to the listener? Something to that effect shows up in testing. Also, wouldn't intermodulation distortion increase because the same diaphragm is producing high and low frequencies. Also, what about dipole cancellation and its effect on bass? I also think that you need to point out the difference between acoustical phase and electrical phase. A lot of people confuse the two.
I'm not knocking Soundlabs but all of these speakers have inherent problems. I personally think they have been over touted as being better than they actually are. Of course, most speakers are.
I personally think speakers like Soundlabs sound decent because they have no box and no baffle. It eliminates a big problem found in dynamic speakers but substitutes other problems. This is one of the areas Vandersteen worked on in his "Baffleless" designs which I think account for the spaciousness his speakers exibit.
I do know the Soundlabs test a little disjointed in relationship to frequency response that I think accounts for a little mid range emphasis giving them that "transparent" sound. You can call it test problems or whatever, but the speakers at a normal distance sound a little in err.
I do think time and phase is an issue. B&W did a test some time ago where they electronically created a time and phase perfect recording to compensate for the speakers lack of same. Everyone in the trial liked the time and phase aligned sound better in comparison.
I'm no speaker speaker designer and I know just enough to be dangerous but after 35 years of listening, I have discovered certain things ARE meaningful. Time and phase is one of those things. It allows the structure of the music to develop more fully. Integration of the drivers seem better compared to steep slope speakers. It simply sounds more natural to me. Sounds are not thrown at you. You are allowed to listen.
Every speaker has its attributes and its distractions. We all pick and choose on what each of us as an individual interpret as "Good." After all these years, I don't know what good is any more. It's all becoming a blur in the ever increasing world of advertisement!