Roy...do you have a dealer in the midwest?...I would love to audition the Europas...cheers...or do you have any b-stock/demos available? |
I dont believe Vandy or THiel use "complex" x-over circuitry...these are afterall pioneering first order time and phase correct speaker designers...both Richard and Jim...and as RIchard V has openly stated...there are only a handful of truly time and phase correct speakers on the market...SPica would be the one that fall into a more complex x-over category... |
I tend to like Brit monitors...such as Spendors,Proacs, and my Quad 12Ls...and all of these companies are rather "secretive" on disclosing exact crossover componets,design schematics,etc...in short...they dont overly advertise being time/phase correct...but Im sure they incorporate some of these traits....in short...I feel "phase coherent" has become a marketing slogan...and really detracts from the few companies who are actively applying this viewpoint...and even after listening to Vandersteen, Meadowlark,etc...I still opted for the imaging precision,transparency,soundstaging,and larger sweet spot of a full range monitor...the "lobing" effect of 1st order designs...in my humble opinion...far outweighs the benefits... |
I believe SPicas used a 1st order/4th order x-over configuration in their tc-50...with the 4th order on the mid-bass driver...designer John B. claimed through computer simulation tests that the 4th order had virtually no phase anomalies...I do know this...in terms of 3-d imaging...the SPicas are still one of the best...I also believe B&W uses a 4th order design in their higher end models... |
ALso...Spica tc-50s were designed and marketed as a truly time and phase correct speaker...I know there is alot of jargon these days..."phase correct","phase coherent",etc...but the spicas...like Vandersteen, meadowlark,Thiel,etc...were the real deal...with that said...they were not a perfect creation...the highs were rolled off, they had very little bass, and were not very efficient...however...their 3-d imaging&spacious qualities as Roy mentioned were their claim to fame...and why they still fetch 3-$500 used almost 20yrs later...not much more than they retailed for back in the day...a great speaker during its heyday...and a fine value...but a bit outclassed today...especially in the detail department...at even at the $500 level... |
Roy great response...I was just thinking about this the other day...the real challenge in a time/phase design is not the crossover...its building the entire darn thing in a proper manner to use a first order network...in short...all your ducks must be in a row...and this can be applied to any "minimal" crossover network as well...a good design isnt enough...it has to be well executed with quality componets,etc...which is why I assume so many DIY speakers sound like crap...it is much more than simply throwing off the shelf drivers in a box and hoping for the best...I am constantly surprised at how many think they can outsmart engineers...even those with hi quality gear that like to perform their own mods.... |
Also..Roy...could you shed some light on the correlation between a wide dispersion pattern and time/phase integrity?
Secondly...I believe it was Joseph from JA who brought up a valid point in what I assume was in defensive to his designs(which I dont own)...that is...if time/phase accuracy is indeed retained...why do all time/phase coherent speakers sound different? I know you are a busy man...and this is not intended as a set-up question...I am just curious...thanks for all your informative replies... |
Dolphin..also add Jim Winey of Maggie fame...hey...have to have a planar guy in a speaker discussion...even if his products are "out of phase"! |
Roy...thanks for the response....maybe i should rephrase my question: "if a speaker is fundamentally accurate(time/phase domain)....and can even reproduce a square wave...does this mean it automatically sounds good? I understand that accuracy is a concern...but should it overide overall musical abilities? I have heard both poor examples(phase correct) and non that sounded amazing..... |
Roy..according to your "definition"...Meadowlark,Thiel,and Dunlavy would all be incapabable of true time/phase accuracy... and since Vandersteen incorporates a T-line in their designs...I guess they would also be eliminated... |
Roy...in your own designs...how do you approach low frequency reproduction while retaining time/phase integrity?This seems to be the biggest challenge(there are many)...somehow containing the rear energy wave...and then knowing what to do with it...which I assume even in a sealed design...there is a high degree of stored energy...
ALso...although many frown on ported designs(myself included)...not all designs are created equal...and yes the number of poorly designed port speakers(often due to cost restraints) far outweigh the few that seem to "get it right"....lets face it...ports are found on many costly, highly regarded speakers(especially in hi-end monitors)....which brings me to this:very good speakers with ports exist...which leads me to believe it is the execution of the design rather than the design itself that is paramount...and that time/phase relationships are one of many concerns a designer must face ...in short...there is more than one way to skin a cat... |
Since ports are being picked on...I think there should be some clarification..."port" has become a generic term for any bass reflex type enclosure regardless of construction...and as such carries some negative conotations...it is all too easy to state "ports suck"...as there are numerous poorly designed ones that really are nothing more than a hole in a speaker...however...it is possible to obtain steller bass reproduction and overall coherency through such a design which leads me to believe that a)a high degree of phase integrity is obtained or B)time/phase relationships are not the endall in speaker design...
however this depends on the following: a)the design team is world class...B)the entire speaker is made in-house to hi end standards...which allows the enclosure itself(considering it is well made) to act as a "tuning" mechanism vs. a elaborate "correctional" crossover network that degrades the original signal....
and since most "ported" designs look the same from the outside...and many sound poor...it is all too easy to dismiss the whole lot...however...it is the internal construction of hi-end designs...often more of a elaborate sound "chamber"...that distinquishes hifi from midfi... |
Sean...take the SPicas...increase their legendary imaging,soundstaging, and transparency abilities...add an octave of bass... extend the highs a little...and welcome to the GMA sound...granted this comes with a higher pricetag than the SPicas(probably double)...but as a former tc-50 owner... not that much out there for under a 1k...but the Europas changed all that...they are the best kept secret in audio... |
Dolphin...bass at low volumes is another key area...most people increase the volume for this reason alone...so full range (40 hz) frequency coverage would be one of my criterias for listening at lower volumes...or adding a sub...cheers |
