Thinking of upgrading speakers, any suggestions?

From your perspective, how do “hi-fi” manufacturers with some professional monitor pedigree fare in comparison with ATC/PMC, for example Focal and Wilson Audio?

If you are talking dynamic Hi-Fi speakers and panels They are generally extremely competitive for high quality sound - depending on your tastes a Hi-Fi speaker may sound better or worse than ATC/PMC. So like all speakers it is a matter of choice/taste.

What they generally all cannot do is to handle SPL's much above 100 db SPL at the listening position (2 meters back) - peaks get compressed and transients are tamed - if you push them then most will tend to sound dull, boomy, congested or strained.

As I mentioned - if you want the "live factor" (which I take to mean as you defined it - live sound from a rock band with a drummer from a bar) then you need big horns or you need to be extremely selective in terms of dynamic speakers.

Anyway I don't expect many people get it - it isn't often you hear live kind of sound from home speakers - so most people are used to accepting that you can never achieve this realism at home. Some call this kind of sound "PA sound" to distinguish it from the rich, refined and often warm sound you get from many excellent Hi-Fi speakers. These people positively dislike this kind of sound and will say it is fatiguing and unpleasant and makes their ears bleed. So it is not for everyone.

I would add that it takes a good uncompressed recording and, unfortunately, many modern hypercompressed CD's will be terribly fatiguing at loud levels - this is because of "CD Loudness Wars".

I think you should check out some good horns - it might be the ticket. ATC and PMC are NOT the only option but there are only very limited "dynamic speakers" that will do what you seem to be looking for (live band in a bar levels).

If you can - please check out the first track from Shefield Labs drum track CD with a radioshack meter at your listening position and let me know at what SPL they start to sound strained. As I said before - I'm not really sure that you can really benefit much from a change - only you can decide if need to go a bit louder effortlessly - although it would help me to know what you are getting on drum crescendos and on peak hard hits before your PMC's sound strained. (If you can get 112 to 115 db SPL on the hardest hits and everything sounds fine and clean then for me that would be enough as an acoustic drum set cannot do more than this if you were to stand close to it)

Undoubtedly, some people will take my comments out of context to imply there are no other dynamic speakers that sound good - that was not my intention - perhaps this post will clarify - I mean't what most people would call extremely loud "the live factor" - the reason you can hear the band playing from the other side of the street from inside the bar.

Check out Vandersteen 5A's . They are very musical, can be adjusted to your room for best interface, and a steal at the price.

i would think a used pair of wilson sophias would fit all of your parameters. both the series 1 and 2 have impressive dynamics and are very well balanced across the frequency range. with quality electronics you'll get very accurate timbral structure - and they'll play loud!

Sachav:

Hello I am new to this forum but not to audio.

I have been looking to upgrade my speakers in the $10,000 - $15,000 dollar range for about six months. I also seek the same attributes that you are looking for. I like very dynamic speakers with natural tonal harmonics and a "live" sound. I have listened to several models in this price range and will give you a quick rundown of what I though. In the end I have chose to buy the Thiel 3.7s. Following is a quick over view of how I came to my decision.

I always take the same 3 CDs, Nora Jones "Its not too late" , Dave Matthew's "Under the table and Dreaming", Metallica "Black Album" (along with a number of other) and use a SLM and adjust the volume to 75-80dB.

802D:

I currently own B&W 703s and back when I bought them (in college) I really loved them. They were very clear and clean to me at the time. I now have a house and want something bigger and better. So I went and listened to the 802D.

I really like the highs of these speakers. The bass was big and a little over done but still textured. The problem I had with these speakers was that the vocals were too recessed. While the midrange sounded nice I needed to turn the speakers up too loud because of this. It was a deal breaker for me and I started looking at other speakers. I listened to this speaker 4 different days at two different dealers. They used casse' mono blocks and rotel power amps for the auditions.

The good:
great sound stage:
good clean detailed highs

The bad:
bass was a little over done (still very good)
mids were recessed

Focal 1037:

This was the next speaker I auditioned after the 802Ds. The I heard them at two locations on 3 different days. Every time was on Arcam mono blocks.

The midrange is very open and clear with a natural tone to it. The highs are very detailed and not hyper detailed in anyway. But I had a few problems with this speakers. #1 while I was listening to Nora Jones her voice came straight out of the tweeter on some pieces. This was very distracting and made the highs did not seem very well integrated. Second was the bass. It was very textured when the speakers were pulled out into the room but but was too thin. When we changed room (same dealer different location) and move the speakers closer to the back wall the bass was bigger but lots detail and texture. This was a deal breaker for me and I moved on.

The good:
open clean mids
detailed clean highs

The bad:
tweeter integration was lacking (crossed over too low?)
the bass was hard to work with (concerned with my room)
sound stage was not as wide or high as other speakers

Thiel 3.7:

I was originally looking for an audition of a pair of Wilson Audio Sophias. But my closest dealer (two hours away) only had the duettes on the floor. He also said he had a pair of Thiel 3.7 that I might like. I was not looking at Thiel at the time but I made the trip anyway. The room was 17X20X9 with a Music Fidelity integrated amp. I also did a direct A/B comparison with the Wilson Audio Duettes.

I do not know where to begin. This speaker did it for me in every way. The mids were extremely detailed! The highs were much more detailed then the Duettes. The bass was balanced, it was never boomy or lacking. The sound stage was HUGE and still pinpointed each musician. They were also the only speaker the has disappeared for me. I though other speakers sounded natural in the past but after listening to the 3.7 it has given me a new perspective on what I was missing. I also could not here a crossover in any way. They also looked great IMO.

The good
details, details....
sound stage was huge
bass was tight and clean
seemed to play "as a whole" (one driver)

The bad
might be fatiguing on extended listening? they were not bright but did have a lot of information.

Wilson Audio Duette:
I listened to these right after the Thiel 3.7 (same room, electronics, CDs, songs, dB...) Though the dealer towed these in a little more than the thiels. I really wanted to hear the Sophia but they were not on the floor...

Well I am sure these are good speakers and great for book shelves, but after the Thiel 3.7s they were a big let down. The sound stage was big (though a little smaller than the 3.7). The highs were not very detailed in comparison to the 3.7s. The bass seemed to have a lump around 100hz (could have been the room) and became very distracting. The midrange was very good. It seemed natural and unforced. But the 3.7 were more detailed in the mids too.I think I would have really like this speaker if I had not heard the 3.7s right before it. After the fact they left much to be desired.

The good:
great midrange.
wide sound stage.
"fun" to listen too.

The bad:
Bass was a little lumpy (room?)
highs lacked detail.
easy to drive

Wilson Audio Sophia:

I still need to get out and hear these. Though after my audition of the Duette I have about lost interest in Wilson. I believe I would need to move up to the line to the Watt Puppy and that is too much $$$ for me right now.

Hope this help you out. Just remember use your own ears....

James: