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Thinking of moving from AVR to pre/pro and amp

Disclaimer: I don't know what I don't know. I do not have any major complaints with my current system which I will detail later, but I do know it doesn't sound as close to "live" performances as I'd like. Having read many threads, I believe that moving to separates will help in this area, but I may not have the best reading comprehension. I need your expertise.

My system is used 90/10 TV or DVD/Music, so that's another issue. However, when we play music we tend to really play music. We had the Wadia ipod transport running 12 hours/day over the time between Christmas and New Years, so there are long stretches of listening opportunties. I ran a great number of CDs through my Oppo 95 during this stretch too. Last year I only ran CDs as I didn't have the Wadia (I use Apple Lossless files in the ipod).

There is no option to have a separate music only room or second system no matter how much I'd like to. I have spousal asthetic and ease of use issues to contend with so therefore, whatever I buy must be black and work with my Harmony 1000 touch screen remote.

My upgrade budget is miniscule, <$2k. Used equipment is fine. No HDMI switching is fine as I already am dealing with that now.

My current system is a Rotel RSX 1056 receiver, Oppo 95 running analog 5.1 to the Rotel for audio and video via HDMI to the Sony Bravia XBR IV LCD TV. DirecTV DVR runs digital audio to the Rotel and video via HDMI to the Sony. Oppo 95 plays the CDs through the 5.1 analog cables, though in stereo mode. I use a Wadia transport to run analog into the CD input of the Rotel.

Speakers are B&W LCR6 S2's up front and B&W in ceiling surrounds out back. Two Velodyne SPL10 subs handle the lower frequencies (iirc, I cross over at 100 hz).

I currently can locally get a consignment sale 1-owner Arcam AVP700/P1000 setup for what seems to be a reasonable price ($1350 firm), or I could get a new Emotiva setup with their pre/pro and the 200wpc 5-channel amp for my <$2k budget (albeit not the newest pre/pro with balanced outputs as it isn't out yet and it would stretch the budget too far anyway).

The Arcam P1000 has an advantage in that I can use the extra 2 channels for my patio speakers and sell my ancient SAE 50wpc amp as there seems to be a demand for these on ebay (or there used to be). Not a deal maker, but a plus. Emotiva stuff comes with a warranty and a 30 day trial period, which could be a huge plus. Buying black end plates for the Emotiva is a minus, but not a deal breaker.

I like the warm sound of the B&W/Rotel combo, but it lacks *something* that I can not put words to. I'm hoping moving to more power and a better processor will open this up a bit. For instance, on my current system solo piano music sounds nice, but I just do not *feel* it like I do when someone plays a nice piano live. Same with vocals, they are just not there for me through this system. Norah Jones 'come away with me' is a bit thinner sounding than I'd like is an example that comes to mind.

Damn the new performing arts center and its excellent acoustics! I used to be more ok with the sound that I have. However, after a season seeing a bunch of live shows including performers like Botti and also The Tenors, I find it wanting (sub-note/humble brag: if you saw the Tenors lead with your heart PBS special over the holidays, you saw my wife and I in the crowd shots more than once). I also listen to Rush, Steely Dan, and even (please don't laugh) Jim Brickman. Eclectic tastes.

My room probably does not help at all with 12' ceilings, big open spaces, tile floors with one 12x12 area rug and leather furniture. Additional room treatments outside of possibly an area rug under the dining room table at the far end of the room are unlikely. See wife comment above.

Is it worth dropping money on either the Arcam or Emotiva setup?

Speaker changes are unlikely unless they would match the width of the LCR 6's for the front L&R. Center channel space is limited by the HDTV stand.

The Emotiva would allow me to run HDMI and clean up my cable runs a bit, though I do like the processing the OPPO does (over my last Blu Ray player).

Maybe I should just pay for better seats at the performing arts center?

Thanks for reading all this and I appreciate your help.
admranger

Showing 6 responses by internetmin

internetmin
258 posts
 
I'm going to throw out some questions to you so that I can understand your situation better:

1) What are you doing with speaker placement? I mean with both the B&W and Velodyne subs. The lack of punch--especially if you are crossing over at 100--sounds to be like a speaker placement issue. Your Rotel model doesn't have room correction, so you may have some room issues.

2) 100 is a high crossover. I'm not super-familiar with your LRC setup, but if the speakers don't go down below 100, then my strong hunch is that the source of your 2-channel dissatisfaction is with your speakers and not your AVR.

3) If your room is as large as I think it is (can you confirm size and distance that you sit from the mains?), then I think your speakers simply cannot move enough air in your current space.

In my particular case, I was running Revel M22 for years paired with a Revel B15 sub (I'd use crossover settings between 80-50). They are absolutely fantastic speakers and a killer 2.1 channel setup for stereo. However, I too felt like I was missing something in stereo listening but had no complaints in 7.1 multichannel. When I spoke to a local dealer and a few others, they clued me into the fact that the speakers were likely too small for my setup--I'm in a large room and sit 14 feet from the speakers. Piano especially did not have the weight and depth that I know a "real" piano does.

I played with placement and that helped but I noticed that moving closer made a difference; however when I upgraded my speakers to full-range Revels, all that went away. Wow and I mean WOW what a difference. Now, I had speakers that were able to move enough air and really fill the room. 2-channel has never sounded better and I have absolutely no upgrade itch for the first time in years and years.

So, in your particular case, I have a funny feeling that the issues you are experiencing are a combination of placement and speaker model within your particular room environment and that by exploring those issues more, you may get closer to what you feel you are missing.
internetmin
258 posts
 
Audio in a room can be complicated if you are trying to identify a certain something and debugging it takes time and a methodological approach. There are really no short cuts. Here is what i would do in your situation:

1) I'd use only a single subwoofer for now. If you haven't calibrated each sub and dealt with phase, etc. then disconnect one sub to make your debugging easier.

2) Absolutely deal with placement and focus on that. Start with the cutover of the sub(s) to be 80hz. That's a standard. You may not end up there, but start there for debugging purposes.

3) How close are your speakers to the back wall? How close to the side walls? Are you speakers PERFECTLY symmetrical with the listening position? Did you use a laser meter or a string to make sure you have both angle and distance correct?

4) Ideally, you want a few feet from the back wall and then again a few feet from the side wall. You can start with the rule of 1/3. Measure the width of the room and then place the first speaker 1/3 of the way so that you can minimize room modes and resonances. Then place the second speaker another 1/3 or 2/3 etc. \

5) You should play with your sub placement using the standard method--crawl method is simplest. Just know that with two subs, a simple rule of thumb is both along front wall between L&R speakers or to have them in the middle of opposing walls.

If I can please give you some advice to keep you sane: don't look to replace any equipment or upgrade any speakers. I have a very strong feeling you have setup and placement issues. Until you address those you have no real idea of strengths and weaknesses of the system. Upgrading equipment right now will NOT solve your problems--it will only frustrate you and cost you $$$. Remember, bad speaker placement will always make you feel like something is wanting or missing.

You really do have good speakers and good gear so you should be getting satisfying music out of the deal.
internetmin
258 posts
 
Lots to digest in what you wrote. But also lots of information. I'll try and give you some additional thoughts later, but not having the subs turned on is likely 50% or more of your issue in 2-channel--especially if you were crossing over at 100hz!!

Your room is also huge. I mean huge. Much larger than my space and I now have full range speakers.

If you can fool around with the speaker placement--getting those speakers to ear level and off from the subwoofers--I think the sonic difference you will soon experience will be nothing short of remarkable.

It's becoming clearer why you were dissatisfied (and rightfully so) but the good news is you likely may not need to invest in any new equipment to get extreme satisfaction with what you have.
internetmin
258 posts
 
The height of the speaker's tweeter should be (generally speaking) at the level of your ear when you are seated. So it sounds like you nailed it. There some exceptions to this rule with tower speakers, however, where some have the tweeter higher than the listening position, but they have tuned the system to take this into consideration (Wilson jumps to mind as an example).

Try putting a string at your listening position and then measure that distance to your center channel (or one of the other speakers) and then take that string and measure each speaker. Basically, the string should touch in the exact same place on each speaker (front, center of baffle). If it doesn't then your speaker distances are off and that too will cause imaging issues.

A simple practice to get that accurate is to put a piece of tape on the carpet in right in front of your center channel (assuming center channel is directly in front of listening position). Then you measure from that piece of tape both left and right an equal distance to make sure that your L and R speakers are at the appropriate angle from your chair.

Then, take a laser level or laser meter and put it on top of the speaker and then toe in the speaker until it hits a specific spot on your listening chair. often you will find one speaker is not in alignment with another, another speaker is pointing UP more than the other, or any other oddity that only a laser can show. It will take you 15-30 minutes to do all that, but it will nail imaging and soundstage, etc. If your speakers are not in perfect alignment, the illusion of the stereo image will degrade.

Some will argue (and it's personal preference) that toe in should not be so harsh. If that's your preference then put a white board on a stand about 5-8 feet behind your listening position and then put a cross-hair target on it that you will try and use to level and aim both speakers. Remember, speaker leveling you should use a bubble level meter first. Otherwise, you cannot ensure which speaker is level and which one is not.

You might want to purchase GET BETTER SOUND by Jim Smith. it has lots of tips and tricks in there on how to properly setup and align your speakers. http://www.getbettersound.com

There are also lots of free sites and articles online on hometheater.com or soundandvision.com, etc. Wilson audio also has their method for setting up their Wilson speakers which also works well for any other model
internetmin
258 posts
 
Nice to meet a fellow-Rush fan! I strongly suggest you try and pickup the Rush BluRay. I think that will give you a good reference disk to test out your system with. As with anything, source makes all the difference.

If you really want to test your system then you need both a good two-channel disk and a good multi-channel. If you can get a hold of Star Wars Episode III play the introductory scene. Lots of aggressive use and panning of surrounds and detailed ambiance. At the end of all the Star Wars Blurays is a DTS demo. Each disk has a different demo but it's nice to hear your system kick it up a notch. You cannot access that DTS demo directly on any disc. You must watch the end of the credits and then it kicks in.
internetmin
258 posts
 
Soix has given you some good advice here. Biamping with your speakers and your setup will give you no audible benefit. In fact, you'd be better off spending that money to have a pro come and setup and tune your system. The allure of new equipment can be incredibly tempting; however, in your situation, don't listen to thing like cable upgrades or exotic tweaks. From what you've consistently described, I think you have a speaker setup issue. Until you get that really nailed down, you'll be wasting a lot of money and never happy.

To your point about imaging, did you use the laser or the string method I previously mentioned? It still sounds to me like your speakers are not in proper alignment with each other and with your listening position.
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