Thiel Owners

Hi Everyone - I'm new here, but writing to get this group’s thoughts on whether my cs2.2s will benefit from one or more subwoofers. Bought new in 97, they’ve moved with me from one from one sub-par listening space to another, from apartments and other rentals to a starter home and then vacation home, and now they finally have the room they deserve in a renovated space designed for listening. They have never sounded better, but I’m sure this room can handle more bass.

Pretty wide range of music: classical ensembles to large orchestras, soundtracks, jazz, jam bands, rock. post rock, bluegrass, folk/world music, electronic, some pop and a large collection of live recordings, including about 1,000 bootlegs.

About a year ago, I demoed the Mangepan 3.7s for a week in this room, swapping back and forth with the cs2.2s. The Maggies presented a large image, kind of like sitting in the front row of a movie theater. But I ultimately preferred my Thiels, I liked the pinpoint precision of the Thiel image and while it wasn't as dense or tall as the Maggies, to me the Thiels presented more depth and sounded more natural. 

On Eurythmics "I love you like a ball and chain", the 360 sound effect was more precise and obvious on the Thiels, but in general, I find that track to be kind of harsh sounding and I actually thought it was tonally more pleasing on the Magnepans. But overall I gave them back and kept the Thiels.

OK back to the subwoofer question, this room is treated with a combination of absorption and diffusion, including bass absorbers in rear corners. Overall it's designed to be a bit more lively than a 100% listening room because my family also uses the space for playing various instruments. But I think we can handle more bass without adjusting any of the treatment. My sons like a lot of tracks with some serious bass and I'd like to try to deliver more without giving up the perfect imaging we have now. 
Thanks!
Barnett

Thanks! Ceiling is 11 feet and I forgot to add the cables to speakers are Audioquest that I bought with the speakers. I forget what they called it, but they are gray color about 1" thick.

It's been a while since I measured it, but I think it's 17' x 23' but the treatment takes up 6" on all sides, so the floor measures 16' by 22'. The speakers are on a short wall and behind the camera is a small grand piano & music stands, guitar amps, & chair.

After many years my Proceed Amp2 died and I replaced with a NAD M23. Preamp is a Pass Labs X1 that I bought used many yrs ago. Until a couple weeks ago, I was playing everything through a Mark Levinson 360S DAC, but something changed on the digital stream coming from the Sonos Port and the DAC started applying de-emphasis on everything. So I added a Lumin T3 streamer/DAC. I can still play CDs through the 360S & even send spdif from the Lumin to the 360S if I want to A/B the various D/A conversion options, which is kind of fun. The pic was taken before I added the Lumin T3.

Cables are Music Metre Canto (balanced from 360S > X1 and X1 > M23. The Lumin > X1 is using balanced Audioquest I forget what it was called and I'm out of town today.

Thank you for the info Tom! I measured the room and have corrected values: 15' 10.5" wide by 19' 8" long plus another 6.25" on all sides above the treatment. Ceiling is 10' 8" and the treatment on the walls stops 30" below the ceiling.

I typically listen at low levels, have not detected the bass splat, but I can't speak for the room's more youthful customers. I'm not sure what's required to setup the outboard crossover or what benefits I could expect besides better behaved speakers at high levels.

As for the subwoofer question, it sounds like the biggest issue will be room modes requiring tunable treatment to address? I might try it since I can either return the subs or locate them to other places if it's not an improvement here.

thank you Tom for the expert info!
Barnett

Hi again! While setting up a pair of SVS SB2000 subs in the listening room, of course I made a little playlist to examine the low end. This is how I found what might be the bass splat Tom described on 4/15 above. Somewhere I saw Boz Scaggs "Thanks to You" suggested and this audio example (recorded with my iphone) documents the noise coming from my right CS2.2 - no subwoofers, no left channel, from about 10 inches away. You can hear it at 8-11 seconds and again 22-24 seconds.

For reference, the Decibel X iphone app reported 60dB spl as measured 1 meter from the speaker during the splat. If I play it any softer, then the noise goes away and I never heard it on the left speaker. 

So now I'm interested in the XO solution when it becomes available, even though my normal listening never revealed this noise before. I guess now I'm suspicious. 

I will try switching the wires but I like the mechanical explanation because this does only happen during moments of extreme bass like that where the driver is moving an extreme amount.

To diagnose the vibration issue, I should remove the woofer and just look for something loose or would you suggest trying to play that clip while the woofer is unscrewed??

Incidentally, when I turned off the amp and cranked the subwoofers by themselves, I also found vibration noise coming from one of the hanging ceiling panels. I was able to resolve it, but there's no way I would have noticed it if the main speakers had been playing too. 

Yeah that's an interesting data point, thank you.
I only get it on my right speaker so far. The only way I can explain how loud I'm playing is roughly 60db spl as reported by the free decibel x iphone app from 1 meter in front of the speaker. It's louder than I normally play them, but not intolerably loud, even when sitting 1 meter from it.

When I go quieter than that by even a little, the noise doesn't happen. 

will do, thanks!

last night re-listened to my noise with the grill off and confirmed it's vibration coming from the passive radiator. I can stop it with my finger. Nothing seems loose on the outside though, so I took off the woofer and tried to feel around on the inside.

First let me say these screws have not been touched since I bought the speakers new and the heads were partially deformed from installation, I guess. Also it appears one was never installed - just an empty hole. They came out OK, but one ended up so mangled it's now unusable. Fortunately I have a few screws lying around that work. 

OK so as vair68robert described, the flat rubber ring was not attached to the main foam cover. It's held in place at the outer edge all around though and it does seem to lay flat. I think it could be glued down (with this?), but I'm sure I will make a mess of this project because it's on the inside where I can't see anything.

But I can cram my phone in there and take pics, resulting in this mosaic. Not as beautiful on the inside! But unless anyone has a better idea, I might be able to attempt the surgery this weekend.