Thiel Owners

brayeagle
George 
Congratulations , 97 years old ,
wow and you're still listening to the music .
Keep up the good living .
Rob

Dsper

Steve McCormack said the DNA-500 is the best amp he's ever heard ,
lucky you .  If you truely like the sound I would suggest
sending it to Steve for one of his upgrades , or DIY .

I have a CJ/McCormack DNA-250 that I have been replacing/upgrading
capacitors and resistors ( getting 4 Hovlands in todays mail  )  
and I can tell you that
changing a few componets can make a hugh improvement in sound .
Replacing three  2 watt  resistors with Tantalum ones from Audio Note
suprised the heck out of me , highly recomended .

jafant 
seems like more people are discovering McCormack amps .

Next year my Thiels !

Rob

p.s.  Does anybody here have experience with Goldring MI cartridges
or Grace F9-L ( 5.5mv ) cartridges ? 

While upgrading componets in my McCormack DNA-250 amp ,
I discovered that Conrad Johnson dropped the McCormack from the name but continued to use design .
I've been using images of the MF-2550se for reference as to which componets to upgrade .
I found this artical that fits in with this Thiel speaker forum !

www.theaudiobeat.com › equipment › conrad_johnson_mf2550se

( excerpt from artical )

These are the sorts of details the MF-2550 SE served up best. The 300-hour Teflon Rubicon had at last been crossed.

Among the amplifiers I’ve heard in my system, the Conrad-Johnson MF-2550 SE stands out. Of those amps, its closest competitor in terms of price, specifications, and power is the Classé CA-2300. At $7000, this Canadian anvil delivers 600W into 4 ohms, and was quite capable of handling my Thiel CS3.7s -- and having spent many years with these speakers, I can tell you that, much like their predecessors, the CS7.2s, they will use every watt they can get. The MF-2550 SE produces "just" 400Wpc (confirmed by C-J’s Lew Johnson), but not all watts are created equal. The CA-2300 was a bit sluggish by comparison. The MF-2550 SE gripped the ’3.7s, handling every curve the music threw with agility and speed, and sounding significantly more transparent and musical (in all of the best ways) than the Classé.

Rob

I noticed 2 different sets of Thiel speakers available on USAudioMart ,
a pair of CS3.6s and 7.2s .

Also I would like to clarify my last post ,
I was trying to point out that a Reviewer was using a pair of
CS3.7 speakers as his reference , he had also owned a pair of 7.2s .
I looked up other reviews from this site and found SCS4Ts  and
CS3.7s were reviewed .
The reviewer of the 3.7s previously owned CS3.6s ,
this seems to be a Thiel freindly and knowledgable site .

As for my McCormack DNA-250 amp made by Conrad Johnson ,
I can not reccomend it in it's stock form but 
after upgrading componets trying to imitate the CJ MF-2550se 
I am amazed at the transformation and will say 
if you can afford the MF-2550SE go for it and it's not that heavy .
I can see why DNA owners rave about thier amps AFTER 
sending them in for upgrades and why CJ owners like their amps because of the custom Capacitors they use ( and won't sell me ) ,

ish_mail

You're welcome .
I'm still replacing capacitos and resistors as my budget allows ,
with ultra-fast soft recovery recitiers being next .
Basically part DIY hobby and part the cost of audiophilism .
Used CJ MF-2550se are going for Over $3,700 ,
a Classe CA2300 is going for over $5,000
and a CJ Premeier 350sa went for over $5,000 this year .

I have noticed that many Thiel owners are using Conrad Johnson
equipment both solid state and tube .
At the same time it seems that adding a sub or two seems to be a popular addition .

 I am thinking about adding a CJ preamp
( used ) to replace my passive preamp .

This is a Fun hobby that is or can be very $$$$$ 
and I am trying to keep it down to $$ by buying used and upgrading .

Rob

Vibrations from Both speakers at low hz , could it be the wires ?

I have a CD called Irrational, But Efficacious!  by Ayre and Cardas .
I play this as break-in sound every time I've installed new components  on my amp project. The CD has a track called full glide tone 
that sweeps from 5hz to 20,000hz , my CS2.7s do not start to 
produce sound until 1min. 4secs ( 30hz ? ) .
In the past I played this disc at listening level but the other day 
I had replaced all the power capacitors so I thought that I'd
try a louder setting.  
Both speakers had this vibrating noise that sounded like a metal plate 
or my thoughts speaker wires touching the bass basket .
There wasn't any distortion to the sound , just this added vibration noise 
that would go away as the frequency increased during the sweep .

Have any of you experienced this ?
Do any of you have any ideas about what it could be ?

I plan on e-mailing Rob for information about getting to the crossover
boards ( something that I've been working up the courage to do ) . 

I'd like to thank holco for his beautiful system images that help me visualize the Xover boards .

Rob




                                                                

Thank you jon-5912 and brayeagle 

I feel relieved and I to have only heard it with the test CD .

I'll be running it again next week when I replace 
the recitifiers on the amp that are faster and have a softer recovery  .



 

Wow Thanks beetlemania

None yet , that project will begin right after New Year .
Still working on the amp , 32 caps and 3 resistors 
with 2 resistors and 4 recitifiers going in next week end 
leaving just 10 more caps and 8 resistors to go .
I doing this in small groups to see how they affect the sound 
and control any problems .
I've been using Hovland and Nichicon caps 
but for the speakers I think I'll use Jupitor CU caps .

Thank you Tom

I haven't taken the speakers out yet , not until I start the crossovers upgrad project .

To answer beetemania's question and maybe more insight into the issue.
When playing the IBE cd louder than normal something vibrating 
making a noise like jon-5912's story about sub's virating pan on the oven ( I'm still laughing about that ) . 
The vibration starts at about 30hz and ends about 105hz .
This is not coming from the speaker but from behind it ,
the bass is sound is not affected .
Thanks again for the info about the EBI cd , I printed out the 
freqeuncy and timing chart .

I do have a question for you beetemainia and holco ,
did you change or increase the wiring guage ?
Tom what would be you opinion on increasing the wiring gauge ?
I was thinking of using Cardas 11.5 gauge with WBT fastons .

Until I open the speaker up and inventory componets on the boards 
or I hope Rob can give me info or schematics 
I can only guess at what componts I'll use ,
but I will ask you guys what you used and why .

Happy Monday 
Rob

Thanks George
I think one reason I was hesitent to start the speaker project is COST .

Thank you Tom
I wasn't clear , I was meaning from speaker post to xo boards ,

" WBT-0710Ag nextgen passivated pure silver posts... $398/set of four "

from Michael Perry Audio.

something I wasn't thinking of but Thanks Tom your suggestions and guildence are very much welcomed and appreciated .

my bank account is already having heart pelpitations and this is just the start !  Ha Ha Ha 

Maybe a different hobby like building sand castles .

Rob

Time for spinning vinyl .

Tom and beetle

You guys are the greatest and are stimulating me to start the speaker project earlier , like after ThanksGiving .
The info you are giving me ( and all Thiel owners ) is priceless 
and knowing you are willing to offer such great advise alleviates 
all my anxiety .

Larger gauge in than out , I would have never of thought about that ,
at the same time Tom is saying don't increase the size .

I will start researching speaker terminals with internal mechanical connections , like a Furutech IEC connector I installed on my amp 
This sounds like a good first step along
with the thicker gauge in and out .

And yes I will keep the thread posted , but the 2.7 is so new I doubt  many owners are thinking about mesing with them yet .

Thank You Guys for all your help and expertise .
Rob 

This is alot more fun than just plain retirement !

I've used Cardas posts in the past on a Carver amp ,
but they don't make ones with mechanical connections 
like Tom is recommending .
This will be one of the somethings that I will have to make a decision 
on , as you know from experience the dollars can add up quickly .

Does Anybody know anything about Tellerium ?
Audio Note makes them silver plated for only $57.00 each .

I was once asked a question " can you hear it " ?
I've discovered that many times I didn't hear it
until I was not hearing it !

Thank You andy2

Great resource , added to my bookmarks .

Rob

Beetlemania

No I do not have outriggers that cost $500 ! ,
but I did purchase the outrigger spikes to penitrate the carpet .

Beetle , as in VW beetle ?

Rob

Thanks for thinking about it beetlemania

I plan on taking the passive radiator out , play the EBI cd
and feel around inside to see what is vibrating .

since I don't have the outrigger support I go directly into the speaker
like the original rounded spikes , I use the original nuts to level and tighten .

I have been looking into binding posts and it seems that
Cardas might be the only maker of long posts .

bighempin
From my experience ,
Set your soldering iron to 600 F , use a flat tip about the size of the wire ,
heat the wire and remove it , use solder wick to remove the solder 
from the connector , use solder with silver ( Cardas for me ) 
to reconnect .

Good Luck
Rob

dsper

since you discovered that 10 gauge stranded copper wire sounds good to you then I would suggest trying Cardas 9.5 gauge stranded litz
wire , only $6.50 a foot for 6n copper with the Cardas multi size strands.

 this is on my dyi list after I finish upgrading my DNA-250 amp .

dsper

How much of a DYIer are you ?
Would you consider replacing and upgrading the componets in your
amp?  If so try replacing the rectifiers with fast and soft recovery ones .
Since the 500 is an older amp it might have fast recovery but not soft ,
I was suprised at the difference they made for around $7 each x 4 .

Rob



 

@beetlemania

Update on the wool quilting batting ,
basically a total failure .
No matter how much I used and compressed in the mid/tweeter
cabinet the very high piercing notes came thru ,
in the bass it seemed to muddy up the upper bass .
While it is great to work with , it just isn't the right batting for sound .
Maybe I'll try wool insulation after replacing the resistors 
and electrolytic capacitors .

Solved the brightness after replacing the wiring ,
changed a tube on the phono preamp .

Question , does the 2.4 have fiberglass batting that is cut into squares and rectangles then stuffed in or is it heavy and cut placed aroung the walls ?

Rob

Thank You Tom Thiel

I wish I had known about the findings by Thiel
before I tried experimenting with wool batting ,
so with the knowledge you have shared I will give up any thought 
about trying to use wool , especially since the 2.7 doesn't have 
a seperate chamber for the midrange speaker .

Rob

Tom

Again I have to say thank you , your knowledge , experience and insight
is valued and appreciated by all Thiel owners .

I remember you telling us that Toyota approached Thiel with the thought of using Thiel speakers in Toyota cars ,
your stories and life experiences are always interesting .

As for batting , I've given up with the idea of changing from fiberglass but still the reading and research was very interesting .
I almost bought some " long haired " sheeps wool after reading about it being the best and used by top British speaker makers ,
but overseas shipping prices prevented me from trying .

I'm back to the wiring because I think I made a mistake when I increased 
the gauge to 15.5 reducing the resistance to much ,
the mid tweeter sound is to forceful so I've ordered
17.5 to see if resistance is the problem .
I believe you warned me about that .

I read an old post by @jon_5912 about the holes between the woofer
and the coaxial chamber where the wires pass thru and the possible effect of them not being sealed , I've not sealed mine do to continued work but I'm going to do that this morning to see if the sound is affected. 
Luckily no damage like jon experienced .

Try , Listen , Learn
or is it
Learn , Try , Listen 

Rob

big_greg

I'll partially agree with you on the highs using vinyl but I don't fault the speakers ,

there are some " rock " albums from the mid/late -sixties that can sound awful .

I have not noticed " brightness " in Classical or Jazz or Folk music but there are a few " rock " and "soul" albums that I have a hard time listening to ,

my opinion is that the mixing for AM radio was the culprit .   

Tom

Plugging the pass thru holes for the speaker wires solved the mystery
of why when I turned up the volume the mid and upper range frequencies became overpowering .
The magic has  returned .
I was focusing and blaiming the sound unbalance on the increase in wire gauge , my electronics backround blinded me I guess .
Using your recommendation I'm still going to reduce the tweeter 
wire gauge to 17.5 for a  listen , 
I can always go back to 15.5 .
While it can be frustrating and not always fun ,
the end results have been worth it .

I can honestly say that working on an amp in much more 
straight forward than on a speaker .

Rob

  

jon_5912

When I read your post from 2018 you had 3.7s that blew a coaxial
speaker , supposedly because of the cable pass thru not being sealed .
Thanks to your post it would have been awhile before I sealed the 
speaker cable pass thru solving the problem . 
Lazyness caused my problem .
Distortion was not heard at lower levels until reaching my normal 
listening levels and really was bad if I tried to go higher .
Luckily I almost never turn up the volume more than 2 notches 
beyond my normal so no damage was done .
I would encourage any Thiel owner to post any problems 
so we can all be aware and listen for possible issues before a speaker is damaged.

As jafant would say 
Happy Friday 

Rob

Tom
 Will do ,
delivery is expected Monday ,  I hope to know something by Tuesday or Wednesday .
Can you tell me what the black rubberized coating is ,
it looks like it was painted on and is around the edges where the 
bracing attaches to the walls and was used to seal up the 
openings where the speaker wires came thru .
Rob

Good Morning All

I had to look at the 3.7's on E-Bay , listed at $7,300 .
When I purchased my 2.7's new and delivered for $3,000 
I passed on the chance of owning new 3.7's for $7,000 delivered ,
the same birdseye maple finish ! ( if they were $6,000 I might have )

While looking at all the Thiels for sale there was an ad for 
an add-on filter for the 3.7 & 2.7 speakers ,
does anybody have any knowledge about these ?

I'd like to thank sdecker for all the info about McCormack amps .
.

Thank You Tom

I had no intention of trying these as you had advised me 
to just use better electronics on the cross-over board ,
( I had to ask out of curiousity )
this is the same advise that Mr. McCormack gave me when asked about upgrading my DNA-250 amp
( Which I have almost finished with great success ) .

Since the post before this was about speaker cables 
I thought that I would join in .

I've been using Cardas Neutral Reference since I've had my 2.7s ,
yesterday a freind came over with Sunyata Black Mamba speaker cables 
and I have to say the sound was beautiful , interesting and different .
The speakers dissapeared but at the same time I don't think that the sound was a sharp or fast .
A big problem was that the cables were so stiff that the bending radius was over a foot and they would not fit behind my amp without removing one of my shelves just to be able to experience them .
So I am now thinking about new ( used ) speaker cables .
Have any Thiel owners experienced Tara Labs ?

Thanks
Rob

Thank you pops and solobone22

I had also tried 14 AWG solid core Neotech wire and they sounded flat 
or lifeless .

I guess I'll read past posts to see what others have found rewarding .

After looking back to the beginning I only got thru 4 pages and found these
Audioquest
Alpha-core Goertz 
Kubala Sousna
M.I.T.
Straightwire
Transparent 
and
WireWorld
Reccommended as Thiel compatable .

I guess that I will try to look at Thiel owners of 2.7 and 3.7 speakers ,
since it seems that Cable compatabilty is dependent on the speaker model ( with the the amp powering ) .
  

CABLES !?!?

I used BJCs interconnects and speaker cable with my Carver/Image
system 12 years ago , moved up to Cardas Quad Link and now
am using Cardas Neutral Reference .
I am XXXtremely envious of audiojan being able to use
Cardas Clear Beyond spaker cables but like sdl4 the cost prohibits me from thinking about them , but not dreaming about them .
I couldn't twist my own arm to jump on purchasing Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables offered at 50% off of list .

So I asked Thiel owners about experience with Tara Labs
and what speaker cables owners of CS2.7s and CS3.7s are using .
I then started trying to research cables trying to find some kind 
of quantitative measurements to help make a decision .
I've kinda decided to make my own using Cardas 9.5awg
and their silver rodium spades making seperate runs for + and - .

jafant said it best !

" The ear/brain, is the only measurement tool for cable/cord assessment and evaluation. " 

Thank You Thiel Owners




 

tmsrdg

I had a friend who had Spectral's amp and preamp for 10 years ,
they mandate M.I.T. cabling , every time he had an issue 
they recomended upgrading the cables !
So be preparired to spend , spend and then spend some more .                                                              

tmsrg 
I should apologize for being cheeky and for my faulty memory .

The music goes on .

Rob

Tom 

I installed the 17.5 guage chassis wire to the tweeters Sunday 
and my conclusion is this is the correct size to use .
While the 15.5 guage sounded very good there was a glaring issue ,
on loud higher frequency notes distortion appeared .
This was first noticed when listning to the War album Deliver The Word 
when an alto sax hit the high notes , I then checked with the album that I use for testing when changes are made  Norah Jones Come Away With Me , some of her piano notes caused the same ear bending distortion as heard on the War album and finally the worst offender of all listening to Freewheelin Bob Dylan album , his harmonica playing convinced me to try changing in wire gauge .
The 17.5 sound smooth and sweet , all the notes that were distorted before now sound detailed and clear , even Bob Dylans harmonica playing or to say at least as good as his playing gets  .

If I do any other wire changes it will be to increase the gauge to the bass crossover board but for now it's time to listen to the music for a while before I start installing the Mills the resistors .

Rob

tmsrdg

"I realize this is getting somewhat off the forum topic, but the folks at Berkeley Audio tell me that they run the Alpha DAC directly into Spectral amps, with excellent results.So right now, I'm looking at the Spectral DMA-300. "

Without being cheeky I think your making a good decision ,
one less interconnect cable , one less power cord leaving 
more $ for your amp or speaker cable upgrade .
I use a passive preamp because I need an attenuator and selector .
 I'm one of the minimalists  , less between the music and the speakers . 
You should look into other forums on the topic passive vs. active ,
in your case preamp or no preamp that is the question .

And The Band Played On 

Rob

Tom

Single 17.5 chassis wire with +/- seperated , 
+ tweeter and midrange running together and - running together up the back and sides of the cabinet .
Rob

masi61

stspur is currently upgrading his 3.6s , check page 167 .

From Cardas
Ten feet of 15.5 AWG measures 0.1411 ohms.
Ten feet of 17.5 AWG measures 0.1638 ohms.
Ten feet of 18.5 AWG measured 0.1883 ohms.
Ten feet of 20.5 AWG measures 0.2279 ohms.

So little differences yet one can hear it .

@coop_301 

Did you see the Eagle 7a amp for sale on E-Bay ?

The spec's are fantastic and perfect for Thiel's .

Made me think of a new/different amp . 

thieliste

prof did an excellent job of comparing his 3.7s with his 2.7s ,

go back to about pages 40 - 50 and find his in-depth analysis .

usaltus

In making my speaker cables I used Kimber Kable spades .
If you are thinking of using spades they are easy to connect to the cable and don't have to be tightened with a wrench at the binding posts .

yyzantabarbara

I'd like to throw my 2 cents in , not about amps because of the cost 
but about room acoustics .
For a very reasonable price you could try replacing the 4 inch thick
panels you are using for the side reflection with 1 or 2 inch thick ones ,
on the acoustimac site the give the graphs for each of thier thicknesses .
You can see how you can absorb higher frequency reflections while allowing the lower ones thru , this might help with your lack of bass .

Just a thought
Rob

yysantabarbara

Nice catch or should I say good ears ,
but strange because the coax speakers polarity are clearly marked
with the red and black wires going from the solder pad to the speaker ,
and  if the crossover is like the 2.7 the negative / black wires from the tweeter and midrange  are soldered together .

I hope that wrong wiring is your problem .
Good luck and hope it's not to big of a repair bill .

yyzsantabarbara

"The vertical bi-amp will not work with the Thiel CS3.7 since it only has 1 set of speaker inputs."

Check out bettlemania's system on the virtual systems ,
he bi-wired his 2.4's . 
So with a little drilling and soldering you can have bi-wiring
for bi-amping.

dsper

Try moving your speakers closer together to 8 feet apart and maybe 
experiment with moving your seat closer .

Rob

yyzsantabarbara 

As unsound pointed out previous Thiels were laminate ,
my 2.7's are laminate but to assure yourself remove the coaxial speaker and look at the inside of the cabinet .
At the same time take the passive readiator out and if you have a multi-meter check the continuity of the wires to check for cross termination ,
something the repair technician shoud have done and discovered
during the repair ( I marked my tweeter wires with painters tape when I rewired to avoid the mistake you are describing ) .

And I would like to thank you for opening my eyes with your discovery of your speakers sounding the best you've ever heard at 6 feet apart ,
I know you have a small room but it got me thinking .

There is always something to learn by following this forum's conversations .

Rob
 

unsound
yyzsantabarbara got me thinking,
Tom wrote
" In a 15' wide space, I would rather have 6' between speakers with 4.5' to side walls, than to have 8' between and only 3.5 aside . "
that got me trying .

Since owning these speakers I've been stubborn about positioning them 
from  8ft to 8ft 8in  apart , and from 8ft to 8ft 9in from my ears .
The room is 13ft 1in wide and listening length is 10ft 9in ,
so speaker movement is limited .
I've also tried ever degree of toe-in .

I thought about what makes the 10ft distance to the listeners ears
and 8ft apart as the ideal triangle and why didn't the 8ft to the listener and 8ft apart ( withor without toe-in ) did'nt make me shout WOW . 
The 8ft equilateral triangle gives one a 60 deg angle listener to speaker ,
the isosceles traingle with the speakers 10ft from listener is 47deg .
For the first time I moved the speakers closer than 8ft ,
I now have 39in to the outside wall and 33in to the front wall
with a listening distance of 96in , the center to center is now 82in .
The listening angle is 50.5 deg and the sound is fantastic !
2 gains , less reflection distortion and much wider sound stage .
I've tested the reflection gain by taking accoustic panels and temporarly placing them in the approx location , small gain but enough that I'll still buy 2 more panels to hang .

I believe the greatest gain was the listening angle .
With the speakers centers at 8ft and listening angle at 60 deg
I didn't have much space left for soundsatge outside the speakers 
but with the speaker centers at 6ft 10in and listening angle of 50 deg
I feel that this is as close to the listening experience that one would have 
if you could be sitting at the ideal postion of 10ft from the speakers that are 8ft apart and you had over 4 ft to the outside walls .

It's been said before and I'll say it again ,
Thank You Tom for your insight , knowledge and experience .
Rob












   

Tom
Have you ever considered writing a book about
Jim and the Thiel speaker company ?

coop_301

I use a passive pre-amp ( attenuator and input selector )  with an all tube phone preamp and CD player powered by a McCormack DNA-250 without the need for more gain from a powered preamp .

Your Mark Levinson amp has more than enough power to forgo a powered preamp , if you go back at least 40 pages back you'll read about another Thiel / Spectal digital only owner asking the same question . 

The question is do you want any other features that preamps offer ?