Hi Tom,
I've grown up listening to classical music, beginning with RCA Victor Red Seals played on a wind-up Victrola. Having been in the Air Force and later traveling for my company, I've been fortunate to attend many concerts and operas in the US and in Europe over a 64 year period. I'm a classical music and opera nut.
What do I listen for?
I listen to the totality of the performance, not trying to pick apart the individual elements. I want to hear what the composer is trying to tell me.
However, if clearly discernible elements pop up, here's what I can evaluate: I Do Not Listen to hear if the second violin passes gas!
Conductor's pace and interpretation.
Orchestra instrument balance:
Performer's timing
Performer's quality
Orchestra-Soloist-Chorus balance.
Chorus articulation.
Venue quality
Recording quality
Dynamic range
For me, my system and classical CD collection permit listening to the music, in toto, and not just listening to pick out the faults.
Bryston BCD-3 spinner > BP17cubed preamp > 4B cubed amp > Thiel 2.7 speakers with SS2.2 sub and PX05 crossover. For me, the preamp and speakers make it real.
Blue Jeans Cables for interconnects and speakers. Standard Bryston
power cords.
Stax Lambda Pro and Sennheiser HD 600 Headphones for when the neighbors complain!
Listening room: 16 x 24 x 12, with one 24" side partially open
to the dining room. Carpeted with upholstered furniture.
George
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batmanfan
It takes a while for the BP17 cubed to break in. Although Bryston runs each one for 100 hours, I ran mine for another 100-150, as it gradually improved over time.
I exchanged a BP-26 for the 17 cubed. No contest.
Disclaimer: I listen to classical music, with country and bluegrass a significant minority. No synthetic music or hard rock. |
batmanfanI'm running Thiel 2.7s with a Bryston 4B cubed amp and BP17 cubed preamp. IMO, Bryston preamps and amps were made for each other. (I envy you with those 28B monos!) The BP 17 cubed can be ordered as a stand alone preamp, with an excellent DAC, with an excellent Phono stage, or with both. Just a thought George |
prof,
Agree!
My 3.5s didn't project this way. The 27s and SS2.2 sub have made me a very happy camper.
George
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There's a pair of 7.2s for sale on e-Bay for $6500
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jafant,
Still alive and kicking, and enjoying my system more each day. IMO, the 4B cubed is an excellent choice for the 2.7s.
My "listening room" is 16 x 24 x 12, with a large opening on one long side to another room. However, I don't play my music at ear-shattering levels, so there's no clipping on near-instantaneous changes in volume. The BP-26 has gone to live with my son, so the 17 cubed is the preamp.
No on yet has convinced me streaming is the way to go, so the classical CD collection is getting a workout.
George
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jazzman7
By and large, I agree; however, for classical music nuts, there are only two full-catalog choices for streaming, viz., Idagio and Primephonic. Only Idagio has a desktop app, so that would limit me to Idagio.
Guess I'm antedeluvian, as I don't mind getting up after an hour or so of listening to switch CDs. (Good for the acing bones!)
My son, two daughters and five grandchildren are committed to streaming, and they love the capability. But they're into jazz, rock, and synthetic stuff. Two have good AV setups. "Classical ??? Isn't that stuff a little old fashioned?" Oh Well.
George
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batmanfan,
As you're keeping the 28B monos, I'd suggest you consider the BP17 cubed preamp. IMO, it's a neutral preamp, and neither adds to nor subtracts from what is on a CD. It does require some additional break-in beyond the 100 hours of testing by Bryston. |
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jafant,
Checking out.
Hit my 97th last month, and I'm happy, very happy, with my Thiel 2.7s,Thiel sub and Bryston electronics. No reason to contemplate modifications,, upgrades, etc.
Learned a lot from tomthiel and prof.
Cheers,
George, The Old Fud
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geoffkait,
I'm still sitting on your tail in a Super Hornet, all switches "ON."
Gray Eagle
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prof and I had a couple of discussions on the 3.7 vs 2.7 Thiels.
I was able to audition both speakers over a couple of weeks at the dealer's, using my collection of classical and organ CDs. I settled for the 2.7s, plus a SS2.2 sub, Close contest, but the sub made the difference.
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andy2
I have to agree with prof on the speaker cable issue. Like prof, I've had access to several varieties of esoteric cables, but eventually returned to 10-gage Belden.
I used to "roll my own," but decided to let Blue Jeans weld on the end connects, and got rid of my small remaining stock.
I might not have the Golden Ears necessary to discern the differences among cables, so, YMMV.
Cheers!
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andy2,
That's a third for visiting the Grand Canyon.
Going through the canyon in an inflatible raft is an awesome experience.
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yyzsantabarbara,
I took a very good look at your office and wondered where you might place a pair of 3.7s, especially as your desk is located in one corner and apparently might be difficult to relocate. Just a thought |
andy2
Nah! Not along that portion of the river bank.
If you like diamondbacks, copperheads, centipedes, scorpions and tarantulas, go to Canyon De Chelly and visit the Northern canyon (Canyon Del Muerte.) Lotsa' fun!
( I grew up in Arizona )
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While waiting for my braised brisket to cook, I went to the "Speakers" topic and went to the beginning, hoping to find threads about AR3a speakers. Found this: Not much has changed.
Thiel 30 April 2000 thread:
"Looking for advice in driving Thiel 2.2s. I love the clean, detailed sound they provide with $10,000 amps, but my current gear (mass-market junk) doesn't cut it. Advice? I need both an amp and a preamp, and am willing to spend up to about $3500 total."
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agree with jon.
Test tomes resulted in weird noises, both earlier 3.5s and now the 2.7s.
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Rob
As you're retired, you might have some fun reviewing the Thiele/Small Parameters.
I built my own speakers back in the monaural and early stereo days - - well before the Thiele/Small parameters were published. Wish they'd been available then.
Lotsa' fun.
George (also really retired) |
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Tom,
Sorry for an antediluvian question: When you speak of tonality, are you referring to a pure sinusoid wave form or one containing the harmonics?
In my earlier years, I was taught the beauty of a violin tone came from the addition of the harmonics to the fundamental.
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andy2
Ours would act up at Kathleen Battle.
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andy2
Get a decent set of electrostatic headphones (Stax) and you'll be even more confused. ;-) |
Tom,
Electrostatic headphones use a very, very thin and low mass membrane, positioned between two stators that are driven by a high voltage signal. (The stators operate push-pull to ensure the membrane reacts in a near simultaneous move to the coming signal.
In effect, the membrane reproduces the signal, covering all frequencies fed to it, in a near-instantaneous time.
What this means is what you hear (for example) is what the CD spinner/DAC feeds to the headphone does not have the differences in both the reaction time and the physical distances in space that define a normal speaker system.
What you hear is essentially what the recording engineer and the manufacturer put onto the CD.
I've been using Stax headphones and amplifiers for years to "audition" every classical CD in my collection. (now using the 009 and associated amplifier)
Yes, an electrostatic can sound thin in the bass - - but very clean and precise, and the higher frequencies can appear bright - - but the accuracy and resolution cannot be beaten by dynamic cans, nor the arrival of complex sounds from my 2.7s. (and, no room effects! :-) :-) :-) )
I use my Thiel 2.7s for musical enjoyment. My Stax for finding out whatinthehell really is on that CD.
George |
prof,
I agree with your description of the 2.7s, although I'm using a Bryston 4B cubed with a bp17 cubed preamp. To me there is a clear difference in the 2.7s being driven by the 4BSST2 and the 4B cubed.
George |
Tom,
WoW! 800S cans. They certainly must sound better than my HD 600s. The circular transducer must make a difference.
I agree. Everything that sounds coherent via the electrostatics also sounds coherent with my 2.7s.
I think the major difference between dynamic and electrostatic cans is in the compliance and mass of the respective transducers. (Thiele-Small parameters: Small signals.)
( I use the HD600s when my "bat-ears" neighbor grouses about my nocturnal listening habits .)
George
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I spent several weeks going to my dealer's showroom to audition the 3.7s and 2.7s. I took a widespread selection of my classical CDs with which I was very familiar.
In the end, I selected the 2.7s, along with a SS2.2 sub to extend the lower bass. I'm still completely satisfied with the choice. Disclaimer: I listen to classical music, and not much else.
Living room is 16 x 24 x 12, with a large opening along one side of one 24' wall. Straight 12"ceiling. Speakers equally spaced from side walls, 9' apart and 2' from the end wall. SS2.2 centered between the speakers.
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Tom,
You've talked me into a pair of 800s cans. Thanks!!
So now I have the 008s and the 800s .Really causes a dilemma, as both are excellent. I'll still use the electrostatics to check new CD s, but most likely will use the 800s for pleasurable listening, as they make the soundstage in the 600s appear cramped, and with less HF resolution. (Female voices sound much better.)
George
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jazzman,
The power supply for the BP-26 is some distance away from the preamp.
Where did you get the connecting cable?
George |
jazzman,
The reason I asked is because the cable that comes
wit the 26 and power supply is rather short.
George
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cascadesphil,
Yes, I'm familiar with the diagram on how to wire a cable for use between the power supply and the BP-26, as I own both. (and I have te manual.)
IMO, Belden cables are top quality, and, I've used their cable stock for many years to roll my own speaker and interconnects,
Getting excellent interconnect spades, banana plugs, coax, etc. - - and securing them to the cable is the trick.
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Tom, you wrote:
snip > A lot of the confusion revolves around magazines/reviewers not being able to measure in those real-world situations.
snip > I don't buy the charts. Note they are taken at 50" and on the tweeter axis, both of which meet Stereophile's MO, but are illegitimate for the system under test. At 100" and 35" ear height, those measurements actually yield clean triangles without those false anomalies.
Amen! |
andy2
IMO, the driving factor is the cost involved to reach the top of a two-channel system.
My five grandchildren have excellent two-channel systems, and all have chosen to avoid streaming of classical music. Their main objections to upgrading from "excellent' to "superlative" are (to them) the exorbitant costs. All five spin Redbook CDs on Bryston players and electronics and have speakers ranging from B&Ws to Bryston Mini Ts. (I'm trying to persuade them to go for some 2.3s or 2.4s; however , they're contented with what they have. All had "splurged" on their systems,
and disposable income is now being socked away for their children's college funds.
Just a thought. |
Tom,
Congratulations!
If you want to have some fun, listen to the 3.5s with and then without the equalizer. Eye-opener.
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The equalizer "went South"on mine. I've often wondered if a redesign of the XO would have made a difference. (And a midrange driver that wouldn't quit.) |
Are you planning on adding a subwoofer?
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unsound,
Just under 2K for pair of 8 foot speaker cables. Well beyond my comfort level.
George
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thosb,
Being an antediluvian audio nut, in 1950 I began to use DYI speaker and interconnects - - top Belden wire with the best connectors I could get.
Kept this up until arthritis set in. Since, I've used Blue Jeans Cables for both Belden interconnects and Belden AWG 10 for speaker wiring. Like prof, I haven't been able to discern a significant difference between the straight Beldens and the esoteric ones. I just listened to the 2.7s, and put the $$$$ differences into a new BCD-3 CD spinner, new CDs, upgrading from a 4BSST2 to a 4B3 amplifier, and into a BP173 preamp.
Just a thought
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A Blessed and a Happy Thanksgiving for all our USA friends.
George
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Hi Dsper, I'm a great believer in quality multi-strand cabling for audio frequencies. That's why I've used Belden stock for years. (Disclaimer: I have no financial nor proprietary interests in Belden.) Recently, Belden has offered a new stock, specifically aimed at the audio high-end market. It looks very interesting as an alternative to some of the exorbitantly priced mumbo jumbo cables designed to separate a HiFi addict from his hard earned dollars. I found the explanation of this Belden Iconoclast cable to be reasonable; however, since I haven't auditioned any system using these new cables, I can't vouch for the increase in performance over what I now use. If you're interested: https://www.iconoclastcable.comJust my ancient two cents George |
prof,
I'd put the 2.7s into that category, also. At their price point I haven't heard anything better.
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You might be surprised at how the WAF influences someone willing to part with his money. ;-) ;-) ;-) |
Tom and Dsper
I began my Audio hobby in 1950, and was a devoted tube guy until the quality of KT88s and other amplifier tubes went South. If I wanted a matched set of 88s (or other final tubes) I had to spend a minor fortune (for me.)
Switching to solid state was both a monetary and aural decision. I got so paranoid that I hated tube hum in my system.
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Bud, Coors, Heineken, Corona, Draft?
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A Scottish New Year’s Salutation:
"Lang May Yer Lum Reek."
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mr-bill
I spent several weeks auditioning the 3.7 vs the 2.7 speakers using a collection of my classical CDs.
Like prof, I ended up getting the 2.7 speakers, but added a SmartSub SS2.2 to extend the bass.
IMO, both the 3.7 and the 2.7 needed bass extension, and the subwoofer solved the problem. I'm a very happy camper.
Agree with prof on the 2.7 soundstage.
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unsound
Have to agree with you. Was able to find one SS2.2 sub for my 2.7s. Financial constraints prohibited acquiring the second one.
With a majority of my classical CD s, it's not noticeable, except when the bass viol is solo or prominent (right side of soundstage.) |
Tom,
"Does anybody here know if the SS2.2 has the room boundary compensation.?"
Yes, it does. Mine is corrected in meters,, rather than feet.
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