^Some of the Pass Aleph series amps might not be suitable.
Showing 50 responses by unsound
oblgny, The spikes for the 3.5's are intended to couple the speakers to the floor where appropriate(!). These early Thiels were provided with two sets of spikes, one set was blunt tipped for direct contact with hard, firm flooring and the other set was pointed in order to pierce through carpeting to make contact with firm flooring. The spikes when inserted into the speaker bases hardly protruded, and not intended to be used just to elevate the speakers. In fact, Thiel suggested not using them when the speakers would be placed on flooring that might vibrate with such coupling. Thiel used to offer the replacement spikes for a very nominal fee. |
robinbarbour, While that would seem to make sense, I can't confirm or deny that to be true. Please keep in mind that while up until very recently one could find many attributes that Thiel speakers shared, Jim Thiel got there through various means. With the speakers under consideration, the 3.5's and 6's used eq'd sealed boxes or passive radiators, different box volumes, and perhaps most importantly different drivers and at different price points. |
I had the opportunity to speak with him a few times, and he was always a patient, perfect gentleman. I too am enamored with the 3.5's, IMHO all things considered, it might have been his best product. It takes much more money to get somewhat better performance. Being the absolute bargains they were when new, and even more so now on the used market, I fear that some don't realize that for them to be all they can be, they need to be fed with appropriate gear that could very well exceed the current cost of these speakers. If your ever feeling generous about wine recommendations, please share! Though they're usually a bit out of my budget for regular consumption, amongst others, I have a particular fondness for both red and white Burgundies, and late harvest Rieslings.:-) |
Of course, but: http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs35-loudspeaker-specifications#6mcsq3ICT5hzkUZZ.97 http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs5-loudspeaker-specifications-0#y99hwBpthoEYX6iw.97 Note the frequency response: CS 3.5's +/- 2 dB CS 5's +/- 1dB Most speakers are specified +/- 3 dB I'm confident that with that extra longitude :-), both would measure flat to 20 Hz. |
robinbarbour, Close, but not quite: http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-specifications#zxQKTPbzDr4CaVoc.97 Keep in mind that the 3.5's and the 5's did with it sealed boxes too. |
The 3.5 midranges with their paper surrounds occasionally need to be rebuilt. I've had both of my pair rebuilt by Thiel once gratis 10 years after the warranty ran out, only had to pay for shipping there. I sure miss Shari Graham and the non pareil Thiel customer service. Not bad for 25 year old speakers. |
saffron_boots: note the last sentence in paragraph 11: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/690thiel/index.html#OCgcjcgiVx3FrhzX.97 though not active, on point to some degree never the less: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-cs5-modifications |
richardp01, It is highly (!!!) unlikely that the domes collapsed from use, more likely from careless cleaning or incidental contact. Small dimples on the speaker driver domes are often inconsequential. The midrange surround tear can be tricky, as it is made of paper. It might be best to have it professionally repaired. I'd suggest Thiel https://www.thielaudio.com/parts-services-department/ or Miller Sound http://millersound.net/. I recommend both highly, and if it were up to me, I'd let price decide. As for the collapsed domes, I suggest you try to find or make cardboard tubes/cones with one opening of the same size or just slightly larger than the speaker driver dome under consideration. Gently place the appropriately sized tube/cone opening over the offending opening, and your mouth over the other end, then gently suck. Don't use a vacuum cleaner as it might be too powerful and detach the voice coil. Should you need to remove the speaker drivers, I suggest that before starting you have a small adjustable height table or step stool, a small cup, appropriate equipment for desoldering/ soldering including high quality silver solder (Thiel used to provide a small length of this, but I'm not sure if they still do) , an appropriately sized non-magnetic screwdriver, writeable tape, a marker, appropriately sized boxes and packing material for the speaker drivers. First cut two pieces of tape into 2" lengths for each driver to be removed. Then mark one piece of tape with a "+" and the other with a "-" for each pair of tape pieces. If you don't have a non-magnetic screwdriver, proceed with care. Place the height adjustable table/step stool top right next to the height of the driver to be removed; warning the speaker driver leads might be quite short. Put the screwdriver, tape pieces and small cup on said table/stool.The speaker driver magnets are quite powerful and can attract and drag a typical screwdriver with such force that can cause speaker driver cone tears. When using a typical screwdriver, place the non-screwing hand over the speaker driver cone without pressing down, then carefully place the typical screwdriver between thumb and index finger of the non- screwing hand before removing the first screw. Remove screws from speaker drivers/ speaker baffle, then place screws in the small cup. Desolder one lead from the back of the speaker driver, then place speaker driver on table/stool. On the back of the speaker driver there will probably be a marking denoting "+" or "-"; place the previously appropriately marked "+" or "-" piece of tape on the speaker lead that has just been removed. Repeat with the other speaker lead and put the other appropriately and obviously differently marked piece of tape on the other lead. Repeat as necessary. This will be quite helpful when it comes time to reinstall the speaker drivers. The 3.5's midrange drivers have a reputation for requiring "maintenance". Though they would appear to be of generic origin, Jim Thiel had these otherwise off the shelf drivers customized for his use in this particular line of speakers. The 3.5's haven't been made in decades. Should you replace any of them, you might want to keep any them around, no matter how damaged they appear for potential "rebuilds" should the need arise. Though perhaps a bit more risky, yet perhaps better value laden; another approach might be to buy another 3.5(s), using the parts you need and either keeping the remaining parts for future use or parting out the remaining parts for resale. FWIW, I might be interested in some of those parts for future considerations. Good luck, let us know how it turns out. |
dcockrum, I agree, and am also grateful that Rob is still available to offer his appreciated service. Still, $400 seems a tad rich for a rebuilt driver that might have cost about that much new. What drives that cost; time, materials? I would have guessed that Thiel could afford to do it for about half that. Thiel didn't just have the best customer service in audio back when Shari, Lana and Gary were there, but the best customer service I've ever had from any company of any kind. I guess they just spoiled me. |
richardp01, Your points are not without merit, but when it comes to the 3.5's the cost to value considerations become a bit convoluted. At their current asking prices the 3.5's might be one of the greatest audio values of all time. It would cost several times the going rate of the 3.5's to find another brand with similar qualities. Unfortunately if one were to simply replace their existing 3.5's with another pair of 3.5's, one might find the replacements have the same issues. So despite the apparent cost to value discrepancies it might very well be a good investment to maintain them. From a performance perspective such an investment is a sound value. As I alluded to earlier despite looking like off the shelf outsourced drivers, the 3.5's drivers were unmarked customized units made to Jim Thiel's specifications. If the replacement drivers come from a one time Thiel dealer you might be in luck. Otherwise, buyer beware. Again, I highly recommend Bill LeGall of Miller sound for consideration as well: http://www.millersound.net/millersound-testimonials.html If may add to the somewhat obvious advice previously offered; may I suggest that when removing screws start at the bottom, and when reinstalling screws start at the top. If you don't have an appropriate table/step stool to place in close proximity to the speakers, another set of capable hands belonging to some one with patience and willingness to work closely (intimately?) will do. I'm not currently in need of any extra parts for my 3.5's (I already have a few), but depending on condition and price I might be interested in grills, tweeters, and/or midrange drivers ;-). |
Richardp01, I'd suggest getting that 3.5 eq back asap, then setting it to the 40 Hz setting with your sub, if you find the sub that helpful. I'll say it again, the current market value of these speakers seriously belies the performance level. To my ears the only other speakers I've heard that compare/better regularly sell on the used market for roughly 5- 6X what the 3.5's are selling for, and those speakers then again outperform speakers many time their cost! I prefer them to most of the more recent Thiel models as well. Unless you plan on trading up/out (?), I'd suggest incurring the cost of repair if your considering keeping them for some time. |
Richardp01, This is fourth time this week I've tried to respond to your question with attention it deserves. Every other time I lost the contents just before sending. Oy! In the mean time your follow up posts answered a lot of questions I had for you at that time. Obviously you have found that for your preferred set up, in your room, the 3.5's sans eq with the Velodyne DD12 works better for you. Who am I to argue with your success and satisfaction? I generally suggest keeping the 3.5's eq in the system for a variety of reasons, even when using a sub. One can actually get deeper bass response from some of Thiel's smaller, less expensive models than using the 3.5's without the eq. Very often multiple sources of bass output will smooth out bass nulls and peaks better than bass output from a single source. Unlike the dedicated bass channel such as is found in home theatre audio, stereo bass when summed to mono can send conflicting signals, compromising bass output. Typically I would expect two 10" woofers to have less energy storage and more agility than one 12" woofer. As for the effect of the eq on the rest of output, I have no doubt that you hear what you do, but I am surprised. It's interesting that of the reviews printed around the time of the 3.5's release, such as those found in the Absolute Sound, HiFi Heretic, Sensible Sound and the original Stereophile review from Anthony Cordesman, only the later Stereophile review (and the only one that readers can now find on line) from then editor and owner of Stereophile Larry Archibald (who BTW kept the 3.5' s as his reference loudspeakers for longer than any other speakers other than the later and much(!) more expensive Thiel CS 5's) found any quibbles with the eq. Even he found the 3.5's better with than without the eq. Interestingly enough he suggested a bit of sharpening, of higher frequencies with the eq which is quite a bit different than the smearing you've noticed. FWIW, I do agree with Larry Acrhibald's opinion of the eq, including his observation that many audiophile often already have a prejudice to these type of devices. Such different impressions happen often, for example, as I recall the reviewer for The Absolute Sound found the 3.5's to be a bit (paraphrasing here (it's been a long time)) too buttoned down and reticent, where as Larry Archibald found them a bit forward. Go figure. FWIW, I find them neutral. Your suggestion of relieving the demands on your 100 Watt tube amp is not without merit, but keep in mind that the eq starts to increase impedance and ergo sensitivity as it kicks in which mitigates the demands on the amplifier, especially a tube amp. While a 100 Watt tube amp could certainly be adequate depending on room and desired sound volume, a bigger amp could negate those concerns. As for your use of the Velodyne DD 12, I think that the placement of which in your room might have something to with the improvement you've noticed. As does the digital processing it provides. That processing is especially interesting to me, as I've been long considering using a digital room correction device with adjustable eq function as a replacement for the Theil provided eq. As you've discovered, the likes of which can adjust the bass response to ones particular room rather than some anechoic standard. I've yet to find a budget friendly unit with enough eq adjustability to match the 3.5's equalizer yet. As for the recommendation that others try the Velodyne, I think it important to note that the original asking price of the Velodyne DD 12 is more than the original cost of the 3.5's! I would imagine used prices being similar. Furthermore, if one were to consider using a subwoofer, I'd recommend considering using two rather than one, for the reasons above, even if that meant using smaller ones. |
Richardpo1, Obviously I haven't examined all that many 3.5's without their grills, but the only times I've seen a 4 holed midrange drivers is on mismatched with a 3 hole midrange driver, on used pairs sold on e-bay. I've never seen a pair with two 4 holed midrange drivers. Perhaps different runs of drivers were made with different mounting brackets? I don't know. I'd hazard a guess that the 4 holed drivers might be the off the shelf drivers not made to Jim Thiel's specifications. Not sure what the exact differences might be, if any. Perhaps it's the short coil/ long gap motor, something else? I really don't know for sure, but until I know better, suspicion would cause me to avoid the 4 hole drivers. |
Another consideration is the superior time and phase superiority of the Thiels sealed box bass response over the ported, vented, etc. bass output of many subwoofers. Typically the bigger the driver the better the response gets at the lowest 1st octave, but the worse the response gets at progressively higher octaves,. |
Dlcockrum, Ordinarily I would suggest that amps with the DR-9's power specs might be adequate, but not necessarily ideal. But, those older Classe' amps seem to be an exception to the rule and work beyond what their specs would suggest. Conservatively/under rated? I don't know. But a lot of Apogee users with their even more challenging load, seemed to indeed be very happy running those older Classe' amplifiers with them. |
dlcockrum, I always look forward to your contributions to this thread. IMHO, the CS 5's price aside were Thiel's absolute best performing speakers. When price is considered I have to give the nod to the 3.5's as his best total value. I agree the "I" versions without the pad damped woofers were a very nice improvement. Regrettably there was very little, if no follow up in the rags on the very nicely improved "I" version. Though I am not aware of any testing that would confirm this: I would imagine these later woofers without the attached damping pads would be much more amplifier friendly as well. I also agree that they are especially demanding of set up and associated gear. If it weren't for the expense of proper amplification, I'd probably own a pair. While very nice amps, I always felt that the afore mentioned Krell 250's were hazy in the upper frequencies and didn't quite have the signature bass quality typical of Krells. As much as the pressed loved it, it wasn't my favorite Krell. I much preferred the earlier KMA 160's and 400's. For a while Larry Archibald was using Levinson. Never amongst my favorites. For me they lacked the crispness that is sometimes part of the music, and didn't have the micro and macro dynamics that the Krells had in spades. Some time after the formal Stereophile review there was some mention that Larry Archibald was enthusiastic that he got the CS 5's to really sing with bigger 600 Watt Krells. I can't help but believe that the Thiels sometimes got unfairly blamed for accurately portraying what was really on the recording. |
^You can use two short (1/2 meter (?) lengths of RCA) lengths for the eq tape loop. After which you might very well find that less expensive runs of balanced interconnects out perform more expensive single ended interconnects. Heck, a good portion of the expense of the BAT and Pass is due to the extra parts and labor of their balanced design that makes them perform as well as they do. |
^i still recommend doubling the 8 Ohm power rating when using a tube amp compared to a ss amp with speakers like your 4 Ohm minimum 3.5's and even more with later models that have impedances that drop even lower. Personally I prefer quality ss with their inherently superior frequency linearity and subsequent timbre accuracy. Others might prefer the the even order harmonic distortions of tube amps over the odd order harmonic distortions of ss amps. Pick your preferred poison :-). |
oblgny, Of course as I alluded to earlier, even better, if you could find another 3.5 eq, it shouldn't be too difficult for a qualified tech to convert your now 2 eq's to balanced mono configuration. Then you would avoid the conversions, extra lengths of interconnects, have greater stereo separation, and avail yourself to extra inputs/outputs of your BAT. Another option would be to find a digital room correction device with equalizer function and balanced inputs and outputs. The additional advantage of which is that you could tune your speakers bass output to the your specific room rather than Thiels anechoic one. Something I've been considering for some time. Unfortunately I have yet to find such a budget friendly device with equalizer functions that expand to the 12 dB range that the Thiel unit goes to. |
Jafant, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. "...Electric guitar/electric Bass guitar-driven music..." unto itself typically doesn't go below the first octave where power demands are usually the greatest. Any of the Thiel's made after the 3.5's either/and drop below 4 Ohms and have a phase angel that the vast majority of tube amps don't have the current capability to deal well with. Tube amps when faced with such a load not only don't double down, they very often actually lose power potential. Tube amps will need to provide multiple times the equivalent ss Ohm rating. Very high powered tube amps can get saturated and start to have their high frequency capabilities compromised. Furthermore, tube Watts typically cost quite a bit more than ss Watts. Not exactly the best value. While tube amps do tend to distort more gracefully than ss amps, I'd rather avoid the distortion all together by getting more Watts for my dollar with ss amplification. I've head c-j tubes with many Thiels, and while they do seem to have a lovely upper bass to midrange quality (amongst other things), it's a quality that distracts one from realizing the bass can be quite loose. But just as when one see's through an optical illusion, once it's noticed, it's presence can't go unnoticed. c-j ss are lovely amps that have many of the c-j tube amp qualities and after considerable auditioning between both on Thiel's, I actually bought and ran ss tubes with Thiel CS 2's (most durable and easiest load of any Thiel ever made with a 6 Ohm nominal/ 5 Ohm minimum load). A perfectly lovely combination. A word of caution though while certainly adequate with other Thiels, the larger ss c-j amps don't quite produce the doubling down current capabilities of some of the competition. |
"we all hear differently." I couldn't agree more! When moving up the c-j line of pres often times the output impedance moves up too. Making system matching more of a concern, especially with many ss amps, even more so with amps like the Pass Labs with some having rather low input impedances. And, of course no c-j product has balanced connections, which the Pass Labs seem to work best with. While I can certainly appreciate the charms of tubes, I'm not convinced they are the panacea some might suggest they are. But then again, "we all hear differently." |
Oblgny, you might want to reach out to both Pass Labs and BAT about your plans to do these we balanced mods. Both are amongst the biggest advocates of balanced operation. I don't have any experience with BAT, but Nelson Pass and the people he has around him have for many, many years have been amongst the most generous in the industry in helping customers with technical concerns. Some time ago there where a couple of companies offering replacement eq'for speciific speaker models such as Those fromB&W, KEF, Thiel etc. Many Since they would be going in for surgery, perhaps there are some now available parts upgrades |
oblgny, Let me guess; you bought an eq for Thiel 3's instead of 3.5's? The 3.5's eq was a nice upgrade over the 3's eq. I have admit, considering how the eq works, the bi-wireable binding posts on the 3's would appear to be a good option with eq. On the other hand, Audiogon member Lrsky, who used to work at Thiel around that time has claimed that the eq works beyond the bass spectrum, which would negate that consideration. While I don't doubt the sincerity of his assertion, I haven't seen anything that would confirm it. Have you reached out to Pass Labs or Thiel yet? |