jafant
"I have not read about too many Thiel users and Class D power amps."
There's one in my SS2.2 :-) ;-) :-)
George (The Old Fud)
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Tom,
When I bought my 3.5s, I called Thiel, asking for advice on amplifiers. Jim Thiel took the call and strongly suggested a Bryston.
I'm now on a 4BSST2 driving my 2.7s. Absolutely zero problems, and I'm a confirmed Bryston user. Dealing with the load imposed by that 2.6 ohm dip doesn't faze the 4B. |
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Hey, Tom,
Happy Birthday!
You're still a Spring Chicken!
George |
Tom,
I'm interested, also.
I got mine about six months before the shutdown.
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jafant
If you're considering the KSA-300, I'd suggest three things (based on previous experience of a friend.)
Install a dedicated 20 amp circuit for it. Nothing else on that circuit!
Have two very husky young men to help uncrate, move, and place that beast where you want it.
Be certain it has very, very ample circulation.
Just some thoughts. YMMV
George
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jafant
I'm a Bryston guy: BP26 - BP17c (two systems), and two 4BSST2 amplifiers. BD-3 spinner in one system, BDA-2 DAC and a Cambridge CD transport in the other. Magnum Dynalab FM tuners in both. (gave upon vinyl). Thiel 2.7 speakers on one system and Bryston Mini T speakers in the other.
I'm torn between the BP26 and the 17c, but lean towards the 26, as it has a polarity reverse capability. I used a BP6 for years with earlier versions of the 4B amplifier, so I'm used to the way the 26 handles the music, as both the 6 and 26 employ the same basic circuit layout. I've listened extensively to both the 26 and 17 using my STAX Lambda Pro headphones, The 17c might be a little laid back, but both are the classic "straight wire with a gain" preamps that let you hear the quality (or lack thereof) of the recordings. Neither one covers up the mistakes made in the control room or the pressings. "Warm and Liquid," they are not.
The Thiels are 4 ohm, but go down to 2.6 ohm in the circa 100-160 cps region. The 4Bs handle that without a problem, even at very loud volumes. At low volumes, IMO, the 4Bs are exceptional.
Disclaimers: My comments about the 4BSST2 amps are based on listening to my classical and organ CD collections. Further, I installed dedicated 20 amp circuits for each of the 4Bs. (I have an all-electric home.)
Have Fun auditioning those Brystons.
BTW: Jim Thiel was the person who introduced me to Bryston.
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jayant Not often, but surprisingly, polarity invert makes some of my piano-only CDs sound more forward and sharp. Also, there are several pieces on Helmut Walcha's Bach's Organ Works that sound less dense.
Could be my imagination; however, I think it helps.
As for the the BP6 and BP26, the separate power supply for the 26 might help, although my reason for switching to the 26 was to get the balanced outputs. |
thieliste
Haven't checked in years, but do the 300Bs still need a somewhat extensive "break in" period ?
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jafant
"I have heard the BP-26 with and with the separate power supply."
Can't figure out how the BP-26 can function without the power supply. |
prof
I subscribed to the Audio Critic for several years, but quit around Issue 16. Pete was quite a character!
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unsound
Have to gently disagree in part. That poster's message was , IMO, just plainly nasty - - as if a troll had written it, looking to start a fight. jafant does contribute, but in sentences rather than long and detailed paragraphs.
I happen to moderate a closed mailing list for over 400 of my college classmates. I'll guarantee you, if a message with similar tone had shown up, I'd have yanked it. Civil discourse has little use for the self-appointed righteous .
Just my ancient two cents. YMMV
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A Blessed and Happy Christmas to all.
George |
A Happy New Year, and as my Scottish ancestors used to say at First Footing:
"Lang May Yer Lum Reek."
"Lang may yer lum reek” is a Hogmanay greeting, implying "May you never be without fuel for your fire!", but more literally translates into "Long may your chimney smoke!”
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jafant
I'll second your comment on the Listening Room. That's where I got my 3.5s some years ago.
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jafant
When I ought my 3.5s from Don, I was using a HH Scott preamp and a Scott power amplifier I had built from kits in 1961. I’d been using a series of bookshelf speakers - - ending up with my wife’s pair of AR3a speakers. We had recently moved into our new home with large living and family rooms, and now we could enjoy some floor-standing speakers.
Someone suggested the Listening Room., so my wife and I went there on a Saturday. We both fell in love with the Thiel 3.5s. She said: "Get Them," to which I responded "Yes, Dear!"
Don strongly suggested I acquire a better amplifier; however, finances were strained at that time. I finally had to admit the Scott wasn’t up to the job of filling the living room in our new home. I contacted Thiel, and Jim Thiel recommended Bryston amplifiers.
BTW: Tom’s description of Don’s aversion to esoteric cables is apt. Don ended up steering me to The Audio Critic, and I’ve been a Belden guy since. |
Maybe it's just my ears, but I haven't heard the harshness described in my 2.7s
Poor recordings can emphasize sound in that region.
YMMV |
jafant,
I’m patiently waiting. :-) :-) :-)
Meanwhile,we’re awaiting for the polar vortex to hit us. (Forecast for minus 7 wind chill tomorrow.)
I grew up in the Sonoran Desert, where the two most-hated four-letter curse words were Cold and Snow.
George |
prof
Have to agree with you with the sound of the 2.7 vs the 3.7. I auditioned both before choosing the 2.7s; however, I added a SmartSub 2.2 to the mix. (PX05 passive crossover.) |
tomthiel,
I listened to both the 3.7 and 2.7 in my dealer's showroom, using several of my own CDs. I'd listened to these CDs over several years with my Thiel 3.5s, so I might have developed a certain mind-set as to what I wanted in a new pair of Thiels.
My "review" CDs were from the classical genre - - symphonies, concertos, chorales, operas, requiems, instrumental trios and quartets and organ. I went back four times to listen.
Yes, the 3.7 had a more extended bass, but I preferred the 2.7s way it handled the upper bass and lower midrange. So, I settled on the 2.7s with an SS2.2 sub. Cost/price, or appearance, were not considerations.
I certainly might be missing something, as I haven't listened to modern jazz, rock, heavy metal or synthesized music, etc. through a high fidelity stereo system. Just classical music through my two channel rig - - from 78s through 45s, LPs, 1.5 reel-to-reel, to CDs. In the mono years, I built my own speakers, using JBL, Altec-Lansing and Tannoy drivers.
BTW: I got my love of music listening to Enrico Caruso on 78 Victor Red Seals, played on a wind-up Victrola with cactus needles. There's been quite a bit of progress in recording/playback capabilities since then.
George
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jafant
In addition to your own preamp, see if you can get them to use a "settled in" Bryston BP17 cubed preamp with the 4B cubed amplifier. The 17 preamp made a difference with my 4BSST2. Smoother and cleanly-defined upper midrange and highs, particularly in the soprano voice and violins.
Just a thought. |
jafant
Still kicking, and really enjoying the 2.7s and collection of RedBook CDs.
I now appreciate the BP17cubed preamp in lieu of either the BP6 or BP-26, especially for operas and chorales. It took a while for the 17 to settle in.
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jafant
Purchased the 17cubed last October (S/N 215) and ran it about 8 - 10 hours a day through mid-December. I'd guess it settled in after about 280 hours use.
Changed to a BP-26 I had bought for my son, and ran it from mid-December through late January while assembling his 2-channel system. Then back to the 17 cubed ever since.
Clear difference between the BP-26 and the BP17 cubed, especially in mezzo and soprano voices and choir articulation. Also, significantly less listening fatigue - - almost none. Sticking with the 17 cubed! (If finances permit, I might change out my 4BSST2 for a 4B cubed later this year.)
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bluestone,
As a previous owner of a pair of 3.5s, they do best with a lot of power. I ended up using a Bryston 4B series amp.
They're infinite baffle speakers, so for best sound, they need the watts plus the equalizer.
Just a thought
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jafant
Oops, the spell-checker god misspelled your nickname! Sorry!
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jayant
Many Thanks for the recount of your visit with Michael Burns, and of your impression of the Bryston 4Bc amplifier. It correlates with the views of other individuals whom I trust in the music reproduction arena. I don't have unlimited resources, so springing for the 4Bc is not a trivial expense. I've been living with my 4BSST2 for some years, and I guess that familiarity might have influenced my "hearing"concepts. I guess I'm ready to take the plunge and retire the 4BSST2 for a new 4Bc.
I listen to classical music almost exclusively - - symphonies, chorales, concertos, operas, string trios/quartets and organ. I'm not a bass addict, but want it reproduced in context of what's in the score and has been recorded.
I was able to get a BP-26 and power supply, as I'm putting together a system for my son. So, Ive had the opportunity to directly compare the 26 and the 17c for about a month. I've listened to both preamps in my system and, all things considered, now prefer the 17c over the 26. IMO, the 17 doesn't have the somewhat pronounced mid-bass of the 26, and it has a much clearer and smoother treble - - especially with tenor, alto and soprano voices. It's also is less "dense" in the mid and lower ranges. The sources of the music for this evaluation were my CDs, played on a Bryston BCD-3 spinner, through my 2.7 speakers, driven by the 4BST2. Also,I've listened to both preamps with my STAX Lambda Pro headphones.
I'm certainly not in a position to judge the noise floors on each, so I'll depend on the knowledge of others, especially if phono preamps are in the system.
Hope you'll be able to find a CD/SACD spinner that will be what you desire. In the long run, I believe CDs and SACDs will complement streaming as a medium. For simplicity and choice, if for no other reasons.
BTW: My family came from Savanna and Charleston, but migrated to Thomasville. So, now living in Northern Virginia, I'm jealous of your nice Atlanta area weather!
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jafant
Alexandria, Virginia.
On the correct side of the Potomac River.
George
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Finally back online and enjoying all the posts and chatter.
Had a very bad fall in March, ended up in the hospital and then rehab. It's so nice to be home again and able to listen to music through my Thiels.
Until you've had to listen to nothing but TV through tinny excuses for speakers for a couple of months, you really can't appreciate what Jim Thiel has given us.
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ronkent
Thanks, being fully retired I keep my primary 2 channel stereo going for most of the day - - feeding it with classical CDs and a nearby superb classical music FM station.
Yes, great music really does help the healing, and playing some of my older CDs brings new insight.
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ronkest,
Yeah, I’ll be 96 next month. Thank goodness I still have most of my marbles, and my hearing is still much better than the median for my age.
My thinking (and beliefs) of what good audio should be was forged in the late 40’s and 50’s when I built the speakers and wired the preamps and amplifiers. Lotsa’ Fun; however, today’s speakers and electronics are far above what we used to build and use.
Bryston BCD-3, BP 17 cubed,BP-26, 4BSST2, 4B cubed, BDA-3, Magnum Dynalab FM tuner, Thiel 2.7 speakers with a SS2.2 sub for primary system, AR 3a speakers for secondary system. - - and more classical CDs that I should have. |
jafant,
Thank You.
George
Colonel USAF (Ret)
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If I remember correctly, a Thiel employee (engineering?) defected to Bryston following Jim's death and when the new organization began to unravel.
Am I right or incorrect? |
ronkent
Thanks for the URL to the Copper article. Very interesting reading, and filled in quite a few gaps. Unfortunately, the follow-on to Jim Thiel's company was doomed from the start. I guess failure was inevitable when bean counters and the cost-effective minions attempted to run an artistic enterprise. The article also gave me an additional insight into Tom's place in the company. |
ronkent,
Thanks! That was whoI was looking for. Shorly after leaving Thiel, he appeared in a September, 2013 video pushing the new Bryston speaker collection. He’s advanced through the Bryston system and is now the Bryston VP for US Sales.
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tom,
Did Gary have anything to do with the development of the Bryston speakers? I wondered when I saw him in that September 2013 video, as he mentioned Jim Tanner's desire to develop a speaker line for Bryston.
It's nice to know Gary was in on the development of the 2.7s (my primary speakers!)
BTW: My call sign, brayeagle, was meant to be grayeagle (Air Force career) but somehow was entered as brayeagle. My son often asks me if someone in the head shed thought I was a cross between a donkey and a buzzard,.
George |
tom,
28Bs are one heck of a pair of monoblocs! 1000 watts into 8 ohms, and 1800 watts into 4 ohms. Inordinately low distortion .
I've noticed a change (for the better) in the power amplifiers, from 4B to 4BSST to 4BSST2 to 4B cubed. My 4B cubed has a clarity, smoothness and bass control clearly beyond the SST2. Most noticeable in alto and soprano voices. IMO, their 17 cubed preamp is a step up from the 26.
eagle
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Jim steered me to the Bryston 4B amplifier for my new Thiel 3.5s. Never looked back. |
tom,
Thank you!
My PX05 came configured for the Thiel 2.7 speakers.
My SS2.2 has the same room adjustments as the SS2. I'm aware of the speaker output issue; however, haven't had to worry about it, as I play classical CDs at a reasonable level. (The only comments I get are from my neighbors if I crank up the Verdi Requiem or Berloiz' Te Deom or Requiem.)
My basic reason for asking: My children will "inherit"the two-channel stereo system; but they are more into other types of music, and had asked me if the crossover and sub would be "up to it!" I believe I can tell them "Yes - - as long as you keep the volume at a civilized level."
I'm content with the present setup, but would like to add another sub - - if I could find a decent one in working order. The SS2 series apparently are scarce.
Thank you again,
george
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tomthiel,
What is your opinion of the PX05 passive crossover wen used with the 2.7s and SS2.2? (Bryston 4B cubed amplifier)
george
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prof,
I'm using the Thiel PX05 passive crossover to drive the SS2.2.
As I understand it, the PX05 takes the full range signal going the 2.7s and passes the low frequency signal to the 2.2 sub. There is no high frequency roll-off for the 2.7s.
The PX05 was configured specifically for the 2.7s. Input to the crossover is via four interconnects from the amplifier's output terminals.. I'd guess the low-pass point is circa 60-80 cps. The PX05 signal goes to the Sub via an XLR cable.. No LFE input from the preamp.
george |
Tomthiel
When I first saw those specs, I noticed the Impedance of 2.4 ohms @ 160 Hz. Thankfully, the 4BSST2 was up to the task.
george |
Tom and Prof From my 2.7 Owners info:
CS2.7 SPECIFICATIONS
Bandwidth (–3dB) 35 Hz-20 kHz
Amplitude Response 35Hz-20 kHz ±2.5 dB
Phase Response Minimum ±10°
Sensitivity 87 dB@2.8 V-1m
Impedance 4 Ω (2.4 Ω minimum@160Hz)
Recommended Power 100-400 watts george |
Sandy,
Those sixteen power tubes probably can keep you warm in the winter, but your summer air conditioning bills must be something else! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-).
George: A former very satisfied 3.5 owner - - now listening to 2.7s.
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prof,
Do you still have your 2.7s?
George
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I've tried my 2.7s without and then with the outriggers.They're located three feet from the wall on a carpet with a floor mat. I played a variety of music, including several CDs with substantial bass with near-instantaneous bass impact, as well as with sustained bass. I couldn't tell any difference between using the outriggers and just leaving the speakers on the carpet.
Just my experience, YMMV.
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prof,
Bryston is well into active speaker development. I wonder if they might be persuaded to go the T/P route for future speakers.
Just a thought
George
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I have a Thiel SS2.2 sub for the 2.7s, using a PX05 passive crossover, specifically tweaked for the 2.7s.
It really helps, although I'm only into classical music, and not the AV, heavy metal stuff, etc. |
warjarrett,
There's a slight difference in the low freq spec for the two speakers:
3.7: 33 +/- 2 db sensitivity 90
2.7: 35 +/- 2.5 db sensitivity 87
I notice differences in the lower notes on double bass viols, pianos, organ pipes, and in the impact of a near-instanteneous change in dynamic range (soft to ear-splitting.)
( Redbook classical CDs > BCD-3 > BP17c > 4Bc > Thiel 2.7s with SS2.2) |
prof,
Have to agree with you.
George |
