The “They are here” vs “You are there” sound topic

Erik, no offence intended. I was referring to your comment about not having been at the original performance thus not being able to evaluate a system effectively. 

Erik, I think that is a cop out. There are great systems and there are systems with obvious defects. How much money was spent is no indication. I have heard beautifully balanced little near field systems that out perform huge systems with mega buck amplifiers. I would bet that a group of experienced listeners would rate these systems in a very similar fashion.  Everyone is entitled to listen to what they like but there are good and not so good systems. Why are a lot of us continuously trying to improve our systems by doing or buying this that or the other? That is an admission that their systems could be better. Is there always room for improvement? Most would say yes but I do not think so. I have heard several systems that need no improvement. You would be more likely to make them worse. 

I agree Cleeds, it is just looking at different sides of the same coin. However, there are some important distinctions here. Duke and I illustrated why dipoles such as Maggies are so effective in presenting the venue captured in the recording. I related that dipole line sources radiate very little energy to the sides, up and down which minimizes early reflections and Duke related that enough energy comes of the back side that if the speaker is set up correctly this energy, mostly in the mid range bounces around the room arriving at the ear late simulating the acoustics of a much larger room. The early reflections represent the acoustics of your room. Dipole line sources minimize these reflections better than any other design with the exception of a properly designed bipole horn system. With horns you have much more control over the radiation pattern again giving you the ability to minimize early reflections. To simulate a larger room (increase late reflections you have to add a rear firing midrange driver. With either a horn or Dipole the only early reflection you have to deal with is the two off the front wall aimed at the listening position. As far as bass is concerned instead of decorating your room with ugly bass traps and panels just add several more subwoofers.  

Exactly right bryhifi. You are comparing line sources to point sources. There are very few if any Bi poles out there. That is a speaker that radiates from both sides in phase. Most of them, all the ones you mention are di poles. Both sides radiate 180 degress out of phase. It is not the sound bouncing off the back wall that gives you that "you are there" image. It is actually the lack of reflected sound that allows you to hear farther into the recording. Dipoles throw very little energy to their sides, up or down. Most of us that use them also dampen the wall behind them which tightens up the image even more. 

I think the premise is sort of off. You always want to be at the venue. The question is where in the venue do you want to be. Very few recordings are done so that you feel the instrument is in the room with you. Many studio recordings are very surrealistic and don't put you anywhere. 20 foot wide pianos do not exist. But with a well done live recording the question is where in the venue do you want to be. I prefer to be right up front 6th row or so. This is also more realistic in small clubs were you are always up front. The effect is do almost entirely to speakers and the way they radiate. Point source speakers give you a small sound stage and put you in the back of the hall. Line source speakers put you up front giving you a much larger sound stage. Point source advocates will tell you the stage is too large. I think not. They are just use to listening to miniature stages. The biggest problem for line source advocates is that most recordings are mastered on point source speakers and sometimes the translation to line source is not...right I suppose. So the main factors are speakers and recordings. Other electronics and audiophile paraphernalia make relatively little difference. Next in line would be the amplifier as you do need whatever it takes to get clean peaks of 105 dB. Then the cartridge if you do analog. 

Mike