the sound of massed violins in classical orchestral recordings


why do massed violins have this sort of gritty sandpapery reverberation in classical orchestral recordings?even in some sections of a piece, when the violins are playing softly in the background, you hear that gritty overtone more than the melody.when I listen to the Houston symphony in Jones Hall,sitting fourth row, facing the violin section, I don't hear that sound.I have three systems { two of them mid-fi ] and I hear the same thing-even with headphones.in all instances, the other parts of the orchestra are clear.  my main system : Vanalistine Trancendence 10 tube preamp,a 35 year old solid state Proton D1200 amp, [have tried NAD,Project, Musical Fidelity amps--they don't sound any better],Onkyo dx7555 CD player [Stereophile class B],and Project Carbon turntable with Grado Black 2 cartridge [ the Ortophon Red was too bright ] through Magnepan MG12/QR speakers.Tried a highly regarded Elac speaker--no change as far as the violins go, but way inferior to those dramatic Maggies.So, there you have it. Is it the equipment? Is the state of the art not up to recording violins? Is it me? [its o.k.-I can take it}. In closing,a couple of years ago,I had phone conversation with a well known person associated with a major speaker company about this. His response :[ paraphrased ] Violins are a problem--don't like 'em.  Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
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Showing 2 responses by terraplane8bob

Very interesting thus far, and a couple of folks are close to the real answer.  I spent over 25 years as a symphony musician in a major orchestra, and then upon retirement, another 30 years as a recording engineer.  I hope these credentials might add some weight to my comments.
    If you stand next to a single violinist while they are playing, you can distinctly hear the horsehair of the bow and the rosin that is put on the bow making a totally non-musical noise.  It is the mechanics required to make any bowed instrument play that you hear regardless of how beautiful a tone the performer manages to extract from the instrument once that bow brings the strings into vibration.  The rich sound that we all crave to hear does not mostly emanate from the top of the violin.  The top of the violin is where most of the mechanical noise comes from because that is where the bow and the strings intersect.  The richest sound of the violin is given off by the back of the instrument.  On many occasions, I would place a microphone below and to the rear of a solo violinist to capture this rich sound.  A big mistake is to place microphones above and too close to the string section.  That most certainly results in capturing too much of the afore-mentioned mechanical noise.  Another factor is that not only the different timbres of each individual violinist, but the fact that they are almost never playing the same pitch. I'm relating this to pitch alone, not vibrato, which itself is a rapid changing of pitch. Think of it : Do you really think that the concertmaster in the front of the first violin section can hear what the player in the rear of the second violins is playing ?  Not only must they sit at a reasonable distance from each other to have enough bowing room, they must forego the luxury of sitting near to each other as the woodwind and brass sections can easily do.  Much of the "hash" that happens is micro differences in pitch caused by that very necessary seating arrangement.  The subtle differences in timbre of each instrument is also a consideration.  Woodwinds and brass also have an additional luxury, and that is that there is usually only one player on a part, not massed players like the strings.
     I once was asked by the concertmaster of my orchestra, why his home recordings of his playing didn't sound as rich as he thought he sounded to himself.  I pointed out to him that he was hearing a far more complex sound than anyone else possibly could because he had his instrument firmly clamped between his collarbone and his jaw which provided a "mainlining" effect directly to his hearing apparatus.  He heard overtones that no one, even someone standing beside him, could hear.
     It is truly remarkable that massed strings sound as good as they do when performed by a professional orchestra when considering all of the possible ways for this delicate balance to go awry.
     I recorded a lot of choral groups in my career and will guarantee you that any two sopranos in a group of ten who are singing even slightly out of tune with each other will produce the "hash" we all hate.  In my early days, I thought it was "phase distortion", where the signal was reaching different microphones at different times, but even by using a minimal number of microphones and keeping them at a respectable distance, the phenomenon persisted.  Again, as in a violin section, the more sopranos involved, the less able they would be to actually hear each other, compounding the problem.
     So, physics is involved, mechanics is involved and artistry is involved.
Just like you wouldn't want to remove the noise of Buddy Rich's sticks hitting his drumheads, you wouldn't want to remove the initiation of the string sound.   They aren't synthesizers, you know ?
     Definitely a fascinating subject !


Still very interesting ------.  I wanted to add a bit more to the discussion.
     A few posters have mentioned Deutsche Grammophon as one of the greatest offenders regarding string tone and I thought this experience might bring a bit of light to the subject -----.
    I was involved in a DG recording session as a performer.  Myself and a bassoonist friend were very interested in all audio and recording matters and paid quite a bit of attention to the various techniques that their recording engineers used.  One that struck us both as being rather unusual was when we saw one of the DG staff walking about the stage with a book and a tape measure.  Of course, we inquired as to what he was doing.  He was rather indignant that we'd approached him, but nontheless he tried to explain that the book was a microphone manual and that he had a special function on the team.  His job was to check each microphone during breaks in the recording session to make sure that they were still located at a specific distance from the instrument they were meant to capture.  The book apparently listed every microphone that DG used and listed its proper placement and distance !  I personally counted over 20 microphones on stage for that session, guaranteeing copious amounts of phase distortion !   I figured that the monitoring engineer simply accepted the placement of the mics that the guy with "Das Buch" had determined, regardless of how it sounded !   So much for the personal imprint of a music-minded engineer.  This was no Ken Wilkinson of London/Decca fame in action.  This was business, pure and simple ! 
      I also had the great pleasure of recording for London/Decca with Ken Wilkinson as the recording engineer and recall his fondness for his Tannoy monitors.  He said he used them on every session, not because they were state-of-the-art, but because he knew them so well and could hear changes as they were made, with absolute clarity.  One of the "greats" !