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The Snob Appeal Premium

I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome".  Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ?  Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' !  Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product. 

Here's an anecdotal example: 

I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare. 

I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application. 

In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish. 

I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights  premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit".  I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola". 

Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine. 

I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room. 

Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse. 

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Showing 3 responses by simonmoon

simonmoon's avatar
simonmoon
476 posts
 

There seems to be a common mistake many people have with audio, and especially as it reaches the upper prices and echelon.

I see many people say things like, "is a $20K speaker really worth twice that of a $10K speaker?".

Well, no, if one is expecting exactly twice the performance. But that’s not what one should expect to get out of twice the money.

This is where the phrase, ’diminishing returns’ gets thrown around quite a bit. When it comes to audio, diminishing returns does not exist, in any way other than subjectively, per individual. There is absolutely no objective point of diminishing returns.

If spending an extra $10K for speakers, to get less than double the sound quality is worth it for one person, they did not yet meet their point of diminishing returns.

Just remember, for members here who scoff at mega-dollar audio, there are millions of people out there, who listen to MP3’s. on their smart phones, with $20 earbuds, who think even the most modest, few thousand dollar complete system, is ridiculous money to spend.

simonmoon's avatar
simonmoon
476 posts
 

I have been reading through the Troels Gravesen kit speaker builder project pages.

Many of the people who have built those speakers also own very good "brand" models like B&W 802D and ATC SCM 40 speakers and are reporting that the $2500 kit speakers they have built sound much better.

Those sorts of speakers are hard to sell though.People turn their nose up at them because they do not have any brand snobbery appeal.

Same goes for Chinese Copy amplifiers of ultra high end European models like Dartzeel NHB 108 or FM 300A.They sound superb but most people do not want to know about them.

So many audiophiles are snobs and clearly not really in it primarily for sound quality.

 

@jtgofish

I’ve been singing the praise of DIY speakers designed by the likes of Troels and Jeff Bagby, and others for years!

It is not unusual for DIY speakers by leading DIY designers to end up sounding better than commercially purchased speakers of at least 5 times the price.

My Jeff Bagby designed Auricle’s (RAAL tweeters, SB Acoustic mids), sitting on a pair of Jeff Bagby’s woofer modules (not subwoofers), sound as good as any $10K speaker. I have about $2200 in them.

I am also familiar with quite a few Chinese ’clone’ amps, and I agree, the good ones sound very, very close to the quality of the originals. Especially the ones with the "Sunbuck" label on them. And no, they are not stealing intellectual property. They are using circuit diagrams that have been freely available online for years.

simonmoon's avatar
simonmoon
476 posts
 

@jtgofish

I am tempted to build some myself .Like you I have a stash of premium hardwood-Birdseye and curly jarrah and Tasmanian Blackwood.

Hardwoods are not recommended for speaker enclosures.

Different hardwoods, depending on density and hardness, will have their own resonant behaviors that are usually centered over a narrow range, or ranges of frequencies.

MDF or birch ply, because of their construction and materials, have much better damped resonances, with lower peaks or dips. They are less likely to add their own sound to the music via resonance and ringing. But even then, to get extremely good results, they still benefit by further damping with things like: mass loaded vinyl, No Res, Green Glue Noise proofing compound, NVX sonic barrier on the inside of the panels.

There are videos on YT demonstrating how much more resonant and poorly damped hardwood is compared to MDF or ply. But all you have to do, is nock on a panel of MDF, then a panel of hardwood of the same dimensions, and the differences are easily audible.

Not to mention, hardwoods react to temperature and humidity changes much more, and will possibly crack, buckle, or pull away at the joints.

I can speak from experience. I originally built my Jeff Bagby woofer modules from 1" MDF, with a lot of bracing, and they sounded great. But after a few weeks, I added another layer of MDF with a layer of mass loaded vinyl between (for constrained layer damping), and the audible improvements were not difficult to hear.

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