The physics and limits of relative loudness perception


I have recently been experimenting with the combination of tube pre / Class D power amplification; previously I was using all tubes. An interesting thing happened.

I switched from a Primaluna with EL34s to an Apollon Audio implementation of Purifi Eigentakt, to see what it would sound like. There was the immediate "this sounds kinda clinical" reaction, where the warmth of the power tubes was replaced by the more analytical sound of {solid state, Class D}. This was neither good nor bad itself, but a difference in presentation that took some time to adjust to. I also experimented with my HQPlayer settings (sent to a Pontus II OG), and arrived at a very pleasing tonality [comment: changing HQP filters and dither can alter the sound significantly, and was a lot simpler than auditioning 13 new DACs]. I found that, among other changes, the soundstage became more precise than with the Primaluna. 

But... there was one very annoying thing: Singers who previously were front and center were now slightly off to the right. This was directionally consistent across multiple albums / singers / genres, although the exact degree of shift varied somewhat. I was racking my brain trying to figure out why. Turns out, when I was in my previous house, the system was set up in a non-rectangular room, and a previous set of adjustments using REW and HQP had resulted in the right speaker getting a gain boost of 0.8dB (just gain, no phase adjustment). It was on a different page of the HQP interface than the corrections for bass resonances, and I had missed it.

For a year in the new, rectangular, room, with the Primaluna, this did not appear to bother me. But it was glaringly obvious with the Apollon in the system. Once I found this vestigial setting and removed it, the singers swung back to dead center. Supposedly, our brains are not good at hearing under 1dB of sound difference, yet at 0.8dB this was very obvious. This leads to some questions, on which I hope those more knowledgable that I might help shed some light:

  • Have there been any scientific studies done on how sensitive human hearing is to loudness in the determination of object placement in the soundstage? I.e., that you might not hear small relative volume differences, but these differences can be easily perceived via the imaging of the soundstage?
     
  • Is it loudness, timing (i.e., phase), or a combination of the two that creates the sense of image? 
     
  • If so, is it a reasonable generalization that, at a similar price point / quality level, most (not all) solid state power amps will have better gain control or timing control vs. frequency than most (not all) tube power amps at that level? Or can different implementations of either topology have the better control of loudness/timing?

In any event, like several others in the forum, I am enjoying the combination of tube pre with Class D power. The HQP experiments with "warmth" have led me to order an LTA Aero, which is arriving in a few weeks. I think overall, the combo of new power amp / new DAC will be a nice improvement for my system. And it has been a great lesson in the importance of overall system synergy.

Any observations, references, or experiences would be much appreciated.
 

sfgak

Showing 2 responses by kofibaffour

why do these posts always go on and on without mentioning the speakers used? I never understood it. Also, humans can hear 0.5dB and above to varying degrees of correctness provided it is a wide enough Q boost. if it's a narrow Q, nope, you won't hear 0.5dB changes

also for the imaging and whatever question, yes, a very ideally below 1dB matching across speakers, with the right control in directivity patterns, good room treatment, all lead to uncanny phantom centre and precision of images in the sound field

Reason why, the best imaging and soundstage I've actually heard is in a mastering studio of an acquaintance that has been acoustically controlled with  with Ci5160REFM-THX | KEF International as mains and two subwoofers - JTR Captivator RS1 — JTR Speakers

And it had such incredible depth, and the phantom centre was uncanny, and I mean uncanny. I've heard people talk about uncanny but never felt something like that before, had me doubting if they were messing with me and hiding a centre channel somewhere lol.

He really was proud of his system, and he uses that as both his general music listening and mastering setup. HEaring that cured me of any, "oh you need the speakers 4 ft off the wall or else your soundstage vanishes"

Cos most studios encode these soundstage attributes using in wall speakers or soffit mounted speakers.

These two videos are a good to watch if you have the time - https://youtu.be/FHjy0ZV0V7U?feature=shared and https://youtu.be/8qihRNB660M?feature=shared 

Watch the first and follow with the second, right after

Long-winded comment but your post brought back an awesome memory @sfgak 

@sfgak glad to see you've gotten to the bottom. And no one has golden ear in this space full of people nearing or in retirement age zone who can't hear pray 10kHz effectively for the most part. Hell music itself lacks any hearable content of good volume past 14kHz so don't worry about not detecting ±0.5dB differences 100% of the time. Happy listening