wolf_garcia
Nobody knows the ratio of Audiophiles who like $150 fuses to those who don’t care, and unless Geoffkait has access to data from the "Special Fuse Manufacturers Society" sales results, nobody has any idea how popular or otherwise they are in the audio geek community as a whole.
>>>>Wolfie, you probably didn’t realize it but your friend and humble scribe is an audio insider. I have access to data. Tons of it. I was in an online conference two days ago with principals of HiFi Tuning and Synergistic Research and a dealer for both. Keep in mind I’m not even counting the sales of Isoclean, Audio Magic, Furutech, Create, Audio Horizons, etc. Capish? As for ratios, there were a couple negatives mentioned here. There was you. Then there was moopman. Those are the ones we know of. My ratio of 0.001 is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. 😀
Note to almarg: And this is the guy you are propping up?
Your friend and humble scribe
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gdhal
uberwaltz - .....Does he truly believe the rest of the audio community who does and can hear that difference( numbering in tens of thousands) are ALL delusional? .....
While I cannot speak or write to what wolf_garcia believes, I believe it is a distinct possibility that "yes", there is delusion at play. Just my opinion, of course. And, by your capitalization of the word ALL, it would seem you too agree that at least SOME are delusional.
>>>>>Gosh, maybe a whole lotta placebos goin’ on or Aliens at work or mass hypnosis or a gigantic cosmic joke or maybe some kind of industrial conspiracy on an unprecedented global scale. Or maybe it’s you who is delusional. Ever consider that? How about them 🍎🍎🍎
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Georgehifi wrote,
(Re sending fancy fuses to audiophiles upon request) +1 Hypothetically a great idea. That then takes the expectation bias out of it as well. All prospective fuser’s should ask for this.
>>>Uh, how would that take the expectation bias out of it? Wouldn’t the psychology be that since the fuse company was essentially giving them something for nothing, at least temporarily, the audiophile would believe the fuses would work. Otherwise why would they make such a generous offer? The dude would EXPECT the fuse to work. That’s what expectation bias is. Obviously if it was a naysayer who asked for the fuse he’d be all psyched out believing the fuse wouldn’t work. Which is possibly what happened with the Wolfman and Moops.
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georgehifi
Uh, how would that take the expectation bias out of it?
Because if you pay $150 up front for a $2 fuse your gambling and ridding that winner home. That’s EXPECTATION BIAS. This saying (one of Ralph’s "Atmasphere’s") his best contributions to this thread.
If you borrow something, you’ll be far more honest in your appraisal of it, and not embarrassed at what you’ve done.
Also as many fusers say to "burn in" this "snake oil" fuse is longer than the return period is, $150 looser’s anyway you look at it.
>>>>>George, the burn in time is not longer than the warranty period. Now you’re being silly. Is your slide rule broken? Besides, most fancy fuses are noticeably better than stock fuses right out of the box, even when they’re in the wrong direction. Haven’t you been paying attention? And wouldn’t the customer would be EQUALLY honest in his appraisal either way, if he borrowed it or bought it with a warranty period? He’d have to critically evaluate how the fuse performed to be able to decide to keep it or return it. Alas, your theory is all wet. Hopefully this is a sign that you’re running out of ammo, trying to come up with every ridiculous thing you can think of. Maybe time to take a break and regroup. 😬
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Maybe it’s because I’m...(gulp) ......de-lu-soin-al 😳
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The odds are against it, grasshopper. Look in the mirror. 👀
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We’ve been all over the fuse distortion and noise subject already many times. Please stop pretending it’s some big mystery, folks. Well, maybe in the inscrutable minds of the Uber Skeptics. Where’s Wolfie to ask for the umpteeth time, “Uh, why doesn’t anyone ever give an explanation?” Sob, sob! It’s not rocket science, people! 🚀 |
There are oft times when it’s not clear which way the fuse should be pointed to be pointed in the “correct direction” such as when the fuse is located right where the power cord enters the component or inside sometimes it’s not clear of the direction of electricity flow, as it were, unlike cables and interconnects for which arrows are often provided and for which there’s no such issue.
For those reasons alone it’s best to instruct the user to try both ways. Not to mention even if the wire was controlled for directionality coming off the spool, as Cable makers do, I suspect handling the teeny wire when fabricating the fuse might change the direction accidentally. Most high end fuses have some sort of writing or symbol on them so the user can remember which way the fuse was last pointed, so he won’t lose track (ideally).
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Did somebody forget to take his smart pill this morning? The only way to proceed and the way that’s effective, is to establish proper direction one fuse at a time. Duh! 😛 Any other way is like trying to solve x number of simultaneous equations in x + n unknowns. Make sense? 😳 |
wolf_garcia
I seriously doubt that HiFI tuning and SR would be conferencing together, but if they were, why? Planning a sales territory treaty? Trading fuse coating recipes? Deciding on the table settings for a masked ball? One thing claimed "insiders" can't know is the ratio of audiophile fuse "naysayers" to "the faithful." A point successfully ignored by Kaitty. I get continued flack for repeatedly asking why fuses work, and although it's not "rocket science," this this forum thread is about expensive fuses, not rockets. Nobody has yet to make clear in any post anywhere what these special tiny wires do to "gain about an octave in low bass response," or help a system become "transformed into a magical music machine." Without the pesky directional issue. How? Why? Remember, regardless of the quantum coating of vibration damping directional nano juice, it's a teeny, tiny, little wire that is designed to melt.
What you believe is entirely irrelevant to me. You can jibber jabber until you’re blue in the face, knock yourself out.
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A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
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Gdhal, would it be safe to say you’re experiencing another one of your Deadhead acid flashbacks? Or are you always like this? 😬 Question. Have you given any consideration to going back and finishing up your GED? 😀
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That’s weird. Nobody suggested he put the fuse in the wrong direction. You guys are slipping.
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So, you got the blue and now you got the blues. 😀
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mapman
These fuse threads woukd make a great Monty Python sketch. Way better than the granny gangs bit.
moops, you remind me of the Monty Python sketch where the guy brought his parrot back to the pet store and complained they had sold him a dead parrot, The guy at the counter told him it’s not dead. It’s just sleeping.
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News Flash!! The directionality exhibited by fuses, including stock fuses, is only the tip of the iceberg. The directionality of fuses means that all wire is directional. All speaker cables, interconnects, digital cables, umbilical cables, tonearm wires, headphone cables, internal speaker wiring, internal amplifier and preamplifier wiring, wire in capacitors, wire in transformers, wire in inductors, wire in power cords, whatever. They’re all directional.
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jetter
geoffkait - "Gdhal, would it be safe to say you’re experiencing another one of your Deadhead acid flashbacks?"
gdhal "Possible. Admittedly, I suspect my mind isn’t always as "normal" as it would have been had I not "experimented".
gdhal, you’re in good company here."
>>>>Well, without making a big deal about it, it appears the new “normal” is pseudo skepticism and lack of curiosity. I did not realize pschedelics turned people into pseudo-scientist robots. That’s pretty weird. 🤖 🤖 🤖 😛
Geoff, "...Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood. "
Just a wild guess, but I’m pretty sure none of them would have used their intellectual curiosity to argue if wire, or fuses are directional. Turning the tables a bit, they probably would think anyone who does as much as you might have a "bit" of problem that a hit or two of acid might just help. You know, to turn you in the right direction..
>>>>This all just proves how stubborn pseudo skeptics are in holding onto their ridiculous arguments in spite of all the evidence. You guys got no evidence. You got nothing. That is what we call intellectual dishonesty. Looks like a simple case little scamps teasing the big boys. Don’t you scamps have better things to do? Let’s drink to the little people. 😛
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Honestly, I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I’m just trying to explain why I’m right.
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One assumes the naysayers would be what, the Jive Five? The High Five? The Beehive Five? The Naive Five? 😀 |
jetter
We did run out of valid things to say a while ago. Disagreement is the common denominator that keeps many long running threads alive.
Thanks for keeping the thread alive, jitter. One assumes you’re speaking for yourself. I also suspect you’re actually mistaking honest disagreement for plain old bullheadedness. 🐂
Note to self: It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. 🐠 🐠 🐠 🐠
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I’m afraid you’re missing the point, uberwaltz. This is the fun part. Hel-loo!
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jetter
Hey Socrates gait (sic), don't forget his top two, "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing."
Your humble primitive scribe.
>>>>I could have told you that you know nothing a long time ago. You don’t need Socrates to tell you. Hel-loo! Hey, you guys could be the Know Nothing Party. 🕺🏻
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Apparently all I have to do is utter The Gang that Couldn’t Shoot Straight and Wolfman shows up. It’s uncanny.
Pardon me, Wolfie, but didn’t you forget something? You forgot to demand an explanation why these @$%# fancy fuses work.
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👨🚀
gdhal
geoffkait - One assumes the naysayers would be what, the Jive Five? The High Five? The Beehive Five? The Naive Five? 😀
The James Madison five.
>>>>>>Maybe the Gang that Couldn’t Shoot Straight?
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Oh, George, settle down. Take your meds. Go to your happy place.
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uberwaltz
You mean George has a happy place??
😱😱
Ouch! Very ouch!
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For any controversial audiophile tweak down through history, including fancy fuses, the Green Pen, Mpingo discs, Silver Rainbow Foil, the Intelligent Chip, the VPI Brick, Cable directionality, crystals, the Tice Clock, the Clever Little Clock, Ultra Tweeters, the Red ‘x Pen, directional power cords, tiny little bowl resonators, CD treatments, CD edge beveler, Water Bowls, the photos in the freezer tweak, Tourmaline Gun, and a host of others too many too count there has always sprung up a cadre of Chicken Littles warning young naive audiophiles of the danger lurking right in their midst, threatening lawsuits and even the dreaded Double Blind Tests, whatever, all to protect the sacred laws of science and expose the witchery and fraud. The one percenters. 😀
The sky is Falling! The sky is falling! 🐥 🐥 🐥
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder’s fork and blind-worm’s sting,
Lizard’s leg and howlet’s wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
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I have always heard psychedelic drugs were supposed to have the effect upon the user oft described as a freeing of the mind, or expansion of the mind. Kind of the opposite reaction I observe in our dead head friends, gdhal and jitter. Perhaps the optimism surrounding psychedelics as regards mind expansion should be tempered with a little cold hard reality such as can be found in the pages of Huxley’s epic, The Doors of Perception including his essay, Heaven and Hell.
Made the scene
Week to week
Day to day
Hour to hour
The gate is straight
Deep and wide
Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side
Break on through
Break on through
Break on through
Break on through
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
“Turn on, tune in, drop dead.” - Alfred. E. Newman
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gdhal, you’re doing it again. Try to focus. 👀
🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶🏻♂️ |
Re electron velocity in copper wire:
Although the drift velocity in a wire is small, the thermal velocity of the electrons tends to be quite large. Something of the order of 100,000 meters/sec. So they are buzzing about at random at high speeds, with a small superimposed drift velocity caused by the electric field.
Electric current is essentially a measure of how many charge carriers you can move through a given cross-section of conductor in a given amount of time. This will depend on the size of the cross section, the number of charge carriers, and their velocity. A current of 1 A corresponds to a transfer of 1 Coulomb of charge per second. An electron carries 1.6*10-19C so you need to move 6.3*10^18 electrons/sec. Divide by the density of electrons in a copper wire (about 8.45*10^22 electrons/cm^3) and the cross section of the wire (for AWG 18 this is pi*(1.02mm/2)^2 or 0.008 cm^2) and you get 0.0093 cm/s.
Summary - the net velocity of electrons in copper wire is extremely small. Recall the electrons are not (rpt not) the signal. They are the charge carrier. The signal is an electromagnetic wave the velocity of which is near lightspeed. The electromagnetic wave moves near lightspeed because the wave is comprised of photons, not electrons.
- Your friend and humble scribe
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dwstuderman wrote,
“Also note that fuses do not have a direction as AC flows equally in both directions.”
>>>>>That might very well be the falsest claim so-called skeptics make about directionality. It’s a Strawman argument. Because one thing is true doesn’t mean the other is true. That particular claim is usually a pretty good indication the person doesn’t know what directionality even means.
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Poor little gdhal. Blaming everyone except himself. 😢 I’m guessing it’s a simple case of acid reflux. 🤡
gdhal wrote,
“Even Geoff admitted not long ago that better than 80 percent of his posts are fiction.”
>>>If that’s true I’m sure you can provide the post where I said it. If you can’t then one assumes you’re lying, probably out of desperation. 😫 |
dwstudeman wrote,
Nothing that could not be explained or discovered. Delivering a safe aircraft to the flying public demands that no weird anomalies exist. If it is acting strangely there is always a reason and it must be discovered and corrected.
>>>Aviation safety is much more complicated than whether an aircraft is “delivered to the flying public without weird anomalies.” Please give us a break. I worked for the no. 2 guy in the Office of Saftey at FAA HQ. The FAA communication system is the second largest in the world next to the US military system. The FAA system, as you must know, is a system of many systems all of which interact with each other.
dwstuderman also wrote,
”Being an audio enthusiast since I was young and having been an avionics tech for 32 years including formal electronics training, I really get disappointed when people substitute mysticism for lack of knowledge. Most do not even know how an amplifier works and do not realize that none of the electrons coming from their audio source ever reach the speakers. To oversimplify, an amplifier takes wall current filtered to negative and positive DC and shapes a facsimile of the input signal as closely and accurately as it is capable of doing and sends the facsimile from wall current to the speakers.”
>>>>The number of years one has under his belt is a little bit irrelevant to any argument. Of course the electrons don’t reach the speakers. That’s because, as I commented last night, they travel VERY SLOWLY, about a cm per minute, AND they travel back and forth. But electrons are not (rpt not) the signal. They are only the charge carrier. The signal that goes to the speakers is an electromagnetic wave that is not (rpt not) comprised of electrons. it’s comprised of photons. The velocity of photons in a medium is somewhat less than in a vacuum (universal constant). That’s why the signal in copper wire travels at near lightspeed. It’s photons. It’s how we send information via satellite communications, it’s the same way. Information contained in electromagnetic waves.
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I’m still waiting for that quote, Mr. Huckster. Is it true that when you lie your pants really are on fire? Check out The Doors of Perception and see if you can figure out who’s the deluded one here. 🤠
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georgehifi
dwstudeman is calling audiophiles dopes if we believe fuses and directionality make an audible difference.
He didn't actually say that, but seeing you did. If the shoe fits wear it.
>>>>Didn’t your Mommy ever tell you don’t get behind anyone 100%?
🐑 🐑 🚶🏻♂️
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gdhal, I knew you couldn’t provide a post. Because it doesn’t exist. You’re just a big fat liar. 👨🚀 You know, it’s sometimes best to keep one’s trap shut and have people suspect you’re a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. 😎 And you’re giving psychedelics a bad name. 🤪
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@gdhal - You’re lying again. Liar, liar, pants on fire! 🔥I have never, ever gone back and deleted a post from past history. I will on occasion delete a post immediately, you know, after giving it some more thought. Which is something I think you would benefit from considering. You know, thinking. And think it would probably be wise if you deleted most of your posts from past history as they reveal just how deluded you really are.
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mitch2
@geoffkait , since you are correct about the wave thing, and how the signal is an electromagnetic wave containing photons [which are packets of energy (but no mass) that do in fact travel at the speed of light (in a vacuum) but only about 0.7 to 0.9 times the speed of light in a copper wire], then you understand how the water in a pipe analogy often used by audiophiles is in fact "all wet," particularly since the wave travels outside of the wire. Unfortunately, none of that does anything to promote how the "direction" of a couple of centimeters of wire in a fuse can audibly affect the sound of a system relative to 100 meters of primary copper winding in a transformer.
>>>I didn’t say it did. But you have to lay the groundwork. You have to start somewhere. Why not at the beginning?
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Well, yes and no. It all depends. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. Which is why any test, blind or whatever, is of no value taken by itself. No man is an island. He’s a peninsula. But a test is just an island floating out in an endless sea. 😬 Please note I’m not taking sides.
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I’m sure I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Exhibit A
Excerpt from article in Stereophile Magazine July 2005 by Editor John Atkinson on the dodgy subject of blind tests and the validity of same.
“In the summer of 1978 I took part in a blind listening test organized by Martin Colloms, in which the panel tried to distinguish by ear between two solid-state power amplifiers—a Quad 405 and a Naim NAP250—and a tube amp, a Michaelson & Austin TVA-1. The results of the test were inconclusive, the listeners apparently not being able to distinguish between the amplifiers (see HFN, November 1978). Having been involved in the tests, having seen how carefully Martin had organized them, and having experienced nothing that conflicted with my beliefs, I concluded that the null results proved that the amplifiers didn’t sound different from one another. I bought a Quad 405.
However, over time I began to realize that even though the sound of my system with the Quad was the same as it ever had been, the magic was gone. Listening to records began to play a smaller role in my life—until I replaced the 405 with an M&A tube amplifier two years later.
The lesson was duly learned. Whether or not they can be told apart under blind conditions, amplifiers can have a major effect on a system’s sound quality. And more important, normal listening had revealed what the blind test had missed. I told this anecdote at the debate to make two specific points. First, it demonstrates that my following the then-as-now "objectivist" mantra—that audiophiles should buy the cheapest amplifier that offers the power and features they need—had let me down. Second, it pits against one another two core beliefs of the believers in "scientific" testing: 1) that a blind test, merely by being blind, reveals the reality of audible amplifier differences; and 2) that sighted listening is dominated by nonaudio factors, the so-called "Placebo Effect."
To explain my quarter-century-old Damascene experience, you have to accept that either the blind test was flawed—in which case all the reports that cited that 1978 test as "proving" the amplifiers sounded the same were wrong—or that the nonaudio factors were irrelevant, in which case the criticisms of sighted listening based on that factor must be wrong.”
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chrshanl37 wrote,
“Anyway that doesn’t really apply to gdhal’s proposition ... If those who claim to hear massive improvements from fuses are telling the truth then it should be an easy money grab no?”
Not everyone is claiming “massive improvements.” Some are claiming massive improvements, at least on these threads, but many claim more modest improvements. Results vary from dramatic to modest, like any tweak. You’re statement is nothing more than a Strawman argument. You know, a logical fallacy.
Furthermore, if you’ve been keeping up with the discussion, the tally of aftermarket fuses users worldwide is at least 75,000 positive, 75 negative, extrapolated data by your humble scribe. That actually doesn’t include the most obstreperous and vocal posters here who have not actually ever tried fuses. Come on, people! Cut me some slack! Who’s telling the truth? Isn’t it obvious? Besides, a blind test that has negative results has no meaning. Pure and simple. You guys don’t get it. |
The pinnacle of absurdity and conceit? When for some crazy reason someone suddenly thinks he owns the thread while at the same time most of his posts are being deleted. Wasn’t there a joke about a flea trying to hump an elephant? The height of conceit. 🐘 I see a vacation in your future. 🏝
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👨🚀
gdhal
^Remember gk, by your own admission, 80 percent or more of your posts are fictitious.
Prove it. You can’t. That’s because you’re lying. Remember, you’re the flea. I’m the elephant. My guess is you attended one too many Dead concerts. One too many trips to the mind garden. 🌹 🌹 🌷 🥀 🌺
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“I don’t know, Chief, if he’s very smart or very dumb.” - Quint 🦈
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I see 12 Angry Men is still playing. “You can’t Prove it!” If aftermarket fuses are a money grab as everyone’s favorite Angry Man suggests, then it is surely the most successful money grab in the history of audio. Well, at least next to cables. And it looks like Brimar is the new king money grabber with their new $400 Black fuse. Whoa!
And just how did these money grabbers sustain such a wildly successful money grab campaign for over 15 years without any amps exploding, any houses burning down, any lawsuits, and letters to editor, barely a squeak on audio forums or more than a few disgruntled customers who probably ordered the wrong value, have hearing acuity issues or installed them in the wrong direction? Clever marketing? Mass hallucination? Placebo effect. Global conspiracy? You decide. |
Don’t forget vibration control. You know, just like NASA. 🚀
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But imagine what the sound could be if the fuse was inserted in the wrong direction. Now you won’t be able to stop thinking about it. 😛
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Unlike yourself, uberwaltz, I don’t believe in feeding the trolls. You actually think they are serious, don’t you, someone who gives a rat’s behind? Appease all you want. I don’t play that game.
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