An empowered Wolfie? Wonder what that’s going to be like. 😬
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It’s always a good thing to have strong advocates for both sides of any argument. I can certainly understand someone mistaking strength for dogma. 🐶
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jetter
I have brought this up several times in the past. I wish there was a way to do a quick tally, vote count, to see how the general readership feels about a topic.
In the end this is just my opinion, but I think the tally would support George's viewpoint over that of the usual gang of vocal tweakers.
>>>That’s an excellent question. Having followed the whole fuse evolution for almost twenty years (as well as NASA’s own fuse development that began about the same time) and having been privy to the great many discussions of aftermarket fuses on this and many other audio websites over the years (yes, there are other other web sites, surprising ain’t it?), and having had aftermarket fuses myself (unlike most of the more vociferous skeptics), I think I can say with complete confidence the “score,” as jitter puts it, is around 10,000 to 10, which takes into account the onesies and twosies on this formum who bit the bullet and either bought an aftermarket fuse or were given one to try and didn’t get the same positive results that the other 10,000 or so got. I guess we’ll have to file that under, That’s the Way it Goes Sometimes. Sorry to burst anyone’s balloon. 🎈Or to cause anyone to suddenly develop a brain aneurysm. 🧠 |
jetter
Unlike Geoff’s "everyone but the dumbest knows it to be true" argument, which at other times is the opposite, "the flock is following the wrong shepherd", depending on the direction of the wind, I am not interested in putting in much effort discussing fuses.
>>>>Actually that’s not my argument at all. My argument is that of those who have bought aftermarket fuses over the past 20 years or so, the vast majority - by a ratio of around 1000 to 1 - hear and appreciate the difference a really well designed fuse makes in a high end system. And we actually don’t care if the other side is in some sort of mental anguish and denial over these fancy fuses or if they wish to use comparatively primitive stock fuses. It’s no skin of anyone’s nose. It appears there are some folks here who believe this is all some kind of insidious global conspiracy run by unscrupulous charlatans designed to fool innocent and gullible young audiophiles and grab their cash.
Note: Jitter, for someone who claims to be “not interested in putting in much effort discussing fuses” you certainly are active in this thread as well as other fuse threads. What’s up with that? Just idle curiosity? 🤡
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OK, I’m going to got out on a limb here are guess that the fuse Uber Skeptics, the ones who believe this is all one big conspiracy, even in light of NASA developing advanced fuses right along with HiFi Tuning, Isoclean, Synergistic Research, Audio Magic and many others, probably also believe the following,
A. 9/11 was a US Government ploy to make Saudi Arabi look bad.
B. The first walk on the moon by the US astronaut was staged in a back lot in London by Stanley Kubrick.
C. The world is secretly run by a class of highly intelligent reptilian elite.
D. Hitler survived WWII and lived in South America until he died in 1985.
E. Back to the Future II foretold the rise of Donald Trump and the corruption of society.
F. The US Military was behind the Hindenburg disaster because we wanted to take over the market on hydrogen airships.
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Name dropping of famous amp designers is not only an Appeal to Authority, I.e., logical fallacy, but frankly cannot support the anti re-fusers since amp designers are almost always the LAST to hear about aftermarket fuses. Curl was very much pro using whatever caps, resistors, etc. sounded best back in the day. Probably would be pro fuse these days, actually. |
@Fleschler Do you find the SR Fuses to be directional? Just curious in light of your comment you did not hear directionality in stock fuses. |
In my case yes it does mean throwing caution to the wind as I had Ric bipass the fuse in my EVS Uber modded Oppo 102. I used an Audio Magic Nano fuse at the AC POWER cord entrance to my all tube Woo Audio headphone amplifier.
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Actually, I usually let people do it for me. I’m too humble to do it myself usually and avoid braggadocio. Besides everyone knows that would be an....Appeal to Authority. 🤡
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Thanks for posting. My take away is he doesn’t know. One wonders if he’s still looking. That’s what we used to call a CYA. 😬
”With the clarity of hindsight there are many explanations of why this mattered, damping factor changes not the least of them.
The point of the story is simple. Fuses matter. But why should they matter in the AC circuit? I don’t have a great answer handy. But we’ll look some more tomorrow.” |
One trusts surface mounted fuses can be reversed to check for directionality without a whole lot of angst and trepidation. 😩 Do they come with arrows? 🤡
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Maybe you didn’t have the silver wire going in the right direction but the SR fuse you did. 🙄
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The had and the had nots. I think my favorite quote of his in the video is, I have a list of bull crap in my mind. I’ve oft commented that amplifier designers are perhaps the last to get the memo on fuses and wire directionality. Nobody knows why.😳
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@fleschler - yep, good description.
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Whoa! What?!! He said Night and Day! Hyperbole Aert! Shut the cave door and back to pigmy country!! This is way out of control!!! Ban that person!!
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mitch2
Someone said, “buss and littlefuses are unacceptable for audio applications.”
Whoa Nellie!
Say it ain’t so.....
Turn out the lights, the party’s over!
Selling my shares in Cooper Bussmann tomorrow
>>>>>Reading comprehension fail. 😁
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georgehifi
Somebody wrote: From my experience, buss and littlefuses are unacceptable for audio applications.
This kind of comment about mains fuses should be deleted by the mods, as it’s only posted to make the electrically gullible think they have to buy >$100 boutique "snake oil" fuses.
Cheers George
>>>>Uh, George, now you’re just being silly. First of all the aftermarket fuses sound better than stock fuses. Second, most aftermarket fuses are around $20 so unless your live in a tree house you shouldn’t have too much trouble financing a fuse. Let the inquisition continue! 👺
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Georgehifi
I challenge you to get just one known hiend amp manufacturer to back up what you lot say SR fuses can do, to the music and also the direction difference.
>>>>As I’ve previously commented it appears high end amp manufacturers were inadvertently left off the distribution list when the aftermarket fuse and wire directionality memo went out about 20 years. Which coincidently is how long Rip Van Winkle was asleeep. That’s seems pretty obvious even among the amplifier Circuit Meisters and Anti Tweak Science Inquisition Council right here on this forum. Not to mention that’s probably an Appeal to Authority, anyway. Wake up! Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️
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Close but no cigar. The reason I oft times use the expression pseudo skeptic is to differentiate those who pretend to be skeptical and curious and investigate or do their due diligence from the real skeptics who really ARE curious, who are intellectually skeptical, not just the knee jerk variety, and who investigate claims themselves rather than demanding somebody else do it for them, you know, presumably waiting to pounce on whatever evidence is presented. It’s mostly just Whack a Mole for the locals and the older set. 🤡 I have more real skepticism in my little little finger than pseudo skeptics have in their whole body.
I admit to admiring the moxy and perseverance of some pseudo skeptics who demand proof and repeat the same stale attacks until they are blue in the face. 😰
Can I suggest you lie down, take two placebos and see me in the morning? 😬 |
I have a sneaking suspicion Wolfie is just on a roll thinking he’s invisible and invincible ever since he conned the mods into reinstating some of his deleted posts. Better to let sleeping dogs lie, my Grandady use to say. 🐶 If you feed the sharks you might get bit. 🦈
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Apparently I have ESP. All I have to do is mention pseudo skeptic or superstitious witch hunter somewhere and jitter pops up. It’s uncanny! 😬 Did they lift the ban on stalking or something?
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Quality "LittleFuses" for $2 which were the chosen fuse for the NASA’s Gemini space program or you can pay a little more for the German "Schurter".
>>>>Whoa! What? The Gemini space program? That’s almost 60 years ago. Hel-loo! Hey, maybe those archaic fuses are what caused the fire that killed the 3 Apollo Program astronauts down in Cape Canaveral. Obvious NASA uses very advanced fuses now, have been for a long time, as I pointed out the other day, just like advanced audiophiles. Obviously no one can stop someone from using 60 year old technology if they are bound and determined.
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Whoa! I just got a real bad feeling. George has been arguing til he’s blue in the face all this time without knowing what fhe word directionality even means. By his own words he obviously doesn’t know what it means. George, George, George of the Jungle, look out for that tree! 🌲 🦍
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Can you have embedded shilling within another shill?
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I actually doubt he’s a EE. How bout them 🍎 🍎?
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I’m afraid these things never seem to work for the obstreperous “skeptics,”you know, like Wolfman, Moops and gdhal. My guess is they psyched themselves out, but I’m not a psychiatrist so who the heck knows.
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If you dudes think fuses are a black art, just wait. You ain’t seen nothin yet. 👀
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Hey, whaddya know? He’s your opposite. You’re the maximum poster with lightweight opinions and nearly every post having to do with these ”snake oil” fuses. See, it all evens out! 😳
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I agree with a Al. A poster should have been here for a while before he has the right to insult another poster.
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Insults are a sign of respect for older members. They should not be taken lightly. When I insult someone think of it as a show of respect. The greater the insult the greater the respect. I would complain too much if you thanked me for insulting you. I further submit we divide inmates into two groups, Chronics and Acutes, you know, like in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.
definitions
The Chronics are made up of patients who are considered incurable and will probably be in the ward for the rest of their lives. Chief is included in this category. The Chronics are further subdivided into the Walking Chronics, the Wheelers (those in wheelchairs), and the Vegetables (those who are essentially brain dead).
The Acutes are made up of patients who are seen to be "curable." These men include McMurphy, Harding, Cheswick, Billy, and others. ... It is this group, led by McMurphy, that challenges Nurse Ratched’s authority.
- your friend and humble scribe
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Yes, anyone stepping out of line must deal with the Head of Discipline Dept. Avast, swabbies! Arrggg!
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Wolfie, may your Anti-audiophile and Anti-tweak Maifesto serve as a model for all blind folded EEs and pseudo skeptics to come. Come on down! Long live The Amazing Randi! 🤹♂️
There are none so blind 😎 as those who will not see. 👀 |
Uh, when the Unibomber wrote his Manifesto I’m pretty sure he did not (rpt) intend it as a jumping off place for any kind of reasonable discussion. It was his personal declaration of war. When Hitler marched into Poland 🦆 🦆 🦆 🦆 he wasn’t saying, OK, dudes, let’s talk. He was just a tad beyond negotiating way before that. 🤡
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jitter, not terrible. How’s that?
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OK, boys and girls. What time is it? It’s time for a pop quiz. Yah! This time it’s multiple choice. That way everyone has a chance to get the right answer.
OK, how many aftermarket fuses have been sold since they first came out around 15 years ago or whatever?
a. 100
b. 500
c. 1000
d. 3,000
e. 20,000
f. More than 75,000
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The total number of aftermarket fuse users would be higher than the numbers sold new indicate, obviously, due to the used aftermarket fuse market, just like any audio component. Of course, totals take into account users who bought more than one fuse.
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mapman
Jetter, karma is another one of those things that some can detect that others cannot and is also definitely hard to measure.
>>>>A Gold Star ⭐️ for the oddest yet deliciously cryptic post of the week. Moops, are any of us in imminent danger of being struck by lightning?
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grannyring
I think it is reasonable to assume upgraded fuses won’t improve the SQ of all systems nor will they improve SQ at the same level in all systems. However this does not mean they won’t make a positive SQ change in some or even many systems.
>>>>I realize this is going to sound argumentative but what we’ve actually established is that there are between 50,000 and, say, 100,000 Happy Customers of aftermarket fuses in the past 15 years including those who bought used fuses. Most likely something is wrong somewhere in the system where negative results were obtained. The “dissatisfied customers” represent less than 1%. There is no reason to keep them on board. There is no reason to try to appease them. Or give them any credit. They are just extra weight. They are obviously outliers and their results can simply be thrown out. No more problem.
If thy eye offend thee pluck it out! 👀 |
Oh, brother! Let me take a stab at one or two of Al’s comments.
2)Extensive sets of comparative measurements that have been provided in papers by HiFiTuning, that are sometimes cited as explanations, have been mostly debunked as explanations by me and others, such as noted amplifier designer Roger Modjeski. Generally that has been because the measured differences are far too small to account for the reported benefits, and/or are so small that they would be totally swamped by corresponding differences in the associated wiring and circuitry. (Although see item 2 below for a possible exception)
>>>>HiFi Tuning was the FIRST to admit that the measurements were too small to account for the audible differences THEY heard. They said so right in the article. Hel-loo! You conveniently forgot to mention that. Smooth. Nobody - including your humble scribe - ever claimed that resistance was the magic key to understanding directionality. Yours is a Strawman argument. It’s also fair to point out the measurements were done by a third party, not HiFi Tuning. The other measurements that were included in the HiFi Tuning data sheets such as cryo vs non cryo are also interesting, as well as comparisons of many audiophile fuses and stock fuses. Of course you conveniently ignore those measurements. The differences in resistance, while small, at least show that the wire is NOT (rpt NOT) symmetrical. Are we supposed to just ignore that? We do not known why there are such large audible differences according to direction. No one ever said we did.
More to follow....Talk amongst yourselves.
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cleeds, no disrespect intended but you just got yourself horns waggled by a skilled smooth-talking lawyer. If the glove doesn’t fit you must acquit. 🤡
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Counter argument no. 2
almarg wrote,
3)I would assume that the aging effects George has repeatedly referred to contribute to or are responsible for **some** of the reported benefits.
Give me a break. I suspect that “aging theory” (which itself has gotten a little old 😀 ) - even though, as you say, George obsessively refers to it - is all wet simply because the benefits of aftermarket fuses are audible immediately, before the fuses have time to age more than a few minutes and they only IMPROVE WITH AGE, you know, like a fine wine or woman. 💃🏻 Nor would George’s obsessive aging theory explain fuse directionality, which is also immediately obvious. Besides, stock fuses that have been in place for many years exhibit directionality instantly when reversed, as someone posted fairly recently and with which your humble scribe concurs.
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Cleeds, thank you for the correction. You got hornswoggled.
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Mitch, I was a fuse user from the very start, starting with Isoclean. I also had the Audio Magic Nano fuse a few years ago. I also can read, and see what other fuse users report. Can’t you? I also experimented with stock fuses before fuses were cool. I talk the talk AND walk the walk. When you going to walk the walk, not just talk the talk, Mitch?
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almarg wrote,
3. It is not unreasonable, IMO, to consider the high degree of consistency that has been reported for the reported benefits of SR and other expensive fuses, among components that perform completely different functions, that are completely different in design, that are used in completely different systems, that are powered by AC having very different voltage and noise characteristics, and that are used in both DC and AC applications, to simply be implausible.
>>>What’s implausible about it? There’s nothing at all implausible, inconsistent, unusual, scientifically unfathonable or weird about it. In fact, if anything those facts you bring up are excellent evidence of SR fuses’ and other aftermarket fuses superiority, versatility and universality. Further, most fuses are not “expensive” as we have seen. Yes I realize you guys think the more you say that it will convince young impressionable newbies to stick with relatively bad sounding stock fuses. Most aftermarket fuses are what, about twenty bucks? So give us a break.
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almarg wrote,
4.Wolfie, as well as many of those who are on the opposite side of this issue, have earned considerable respect in my book as a result of his and their many posts here over the years.
Those are the reasons I consider Wolfie’s question to be legitimate, and to have been mostly unanswered in the past despite the lengthy discussions that have occurred, involving many of the same protagonists, in various fuse-related threads going back at least as far as the “Fuses That Matter” thread which began in 2012. At the same time, of course, I certainly recognize that many highly experienced, sincere, and knowledgeable audiophiles have reported significant benefit from these upgrades. While at least a few members having similarly high caliber audiophile credentials have tried some of these fuses and found them to provide little or no benefit, including at least one exceptionally experienced member I can think of whose system costs well north of $50K.
>>>>>That entire argument is simply illogical. It contains all the major elements of the naysayer illogical arguments. I.e., Strawman argument, Appeal to Authority and even Appeal to Money. 😬 We have just established here that the number of folks who do not hear aftermarket fuses is probably much less than 1% of total aftermarket fuse customers, MOST OF WHICH HAVE BEEN SYNERGISTIC RESEARCH FUSES. in these fuse threads on Audiogon, in fact there have been ONLY A HANDFUL OF NEGATIVE REPORTS. so the WORLDWIDE ratio of POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE RESULTS for *all aftermarket fuses* tried by users, including users of second hand fuses, may well be circa 1000 to 1. The negative results would only be 0.001 or 0.1% of total users. That is being very generous. That, dear readers, does not a controversy make. Hel-loo!
Regardless of education, work experience, respect, years of experience, how vociferous or obstreperous, Intelligence, cost of system, we can throw the outliers out. You can promote Wolfie any way you like, but there are better educated, more experienced, richer and more respected audiophiles, with better systems, and a lot of them, who had POSITIVE RESULTS. As we all should know by know, NO SINGLE TEST can settle a debate. It’s only a data point. Too many things can go wrong. As much as this might pain the Naysayers, even the smooth talking ones, THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY. THE CONTROVERSY IS ONLY IN THE MIND OF THE NAYSAYERS.
Your friend and humble scribe,
geoff kait
machina dynamica |
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shadorne
It isn’t just implausible, it is as ridiculous as a nude emperor said to be wearing fantastic clothes that only wise audiophiles can see. This time it is only those with golden ears and only the most high end resolving systems that can hear the sound of a fuse coming out of their speakers.
The real answer for the audible effects is simply the “power of suggestion” - people think they hear a difference because they want to - after all nobody likes to admit that they were duped so the desire to imagine even a slight improvement is overwhelming.
Nice try, but we’ve moved beyond those angst ridden sentiments. Somebody’s following the wrong, you know .....
🐑 🐑 🐑 🐑🚶🏻♂️
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almarg wrote,
1. Many of the purported explanations of the benefits that have been reported to be provided by expensive fuses amount to descriptions of their physical characteristics, and/or descriptions of how they were manufactured, but do not explain how those characteristics would affect the power supply circuitry and/or audio circuitry that is downstream of the fuse within the component, at least to an audibly significant degree and in a way that would be consistently beneficial.
>>>That theory appears to be nothing more than a red herring, or some other logical fallacy, since it’s not (rpt not) necessary to explain what you’re referring to. It’s actually not necessary to explain anything. But what has been offered in way of “explanation” is that “expensive” aftermarket fuses incorporate a number of innovations that PROMOTE better sound quality. These innovations have been described a great many times on these threads. (Wolfie loses all credibility as a legitimate skeptic by his oft repeated claims that nobody ever gives any explanation at all. Give me a break! Which makes your promoting of Wolfie seem all the more bizarre.
Even NASA incorporates some of these fuse innovations in their fuses for space operations, as I described earlier. These innovations include but are not necessarily limited to RF shielding, vibration control, conductivity enhancement through pure wire and end caps. Also, as I’ve oft stated, It’s not up to the users group to EXPLAIN how fuses work. What we have provided in terms of data overwhelming user testimony is evidence, a preponderance of evidence, actually.
Addendum: Hats 🤠 off to you for backing off the “atmosphere fuse holder theory” which is obviously flawed. 😛 |
almarg wrote,
”I would expect that unrecognized extraneous variables, for example differences in equipment warmup states, differences in AC voltage and noise characteristics, differences in room temperature or humidity (temperature is a fundamental parameter in the physics underlying the operation of semiconductors such as transistors, diodes, and integrated circuit chips), flushing of internal digital memory that occurs when power is cycled, etc., are responsible for **some** of the reported benefits.”
>>>>Another illogical argument. Why is it illogical, you ask? Because the reported benefits of fancy fuses occur IN SPITE of those unknown variables, differences in warm up states, differences in room temperature or humidity, or the underlying physics of anything, etc., NOT (rpt not) BECAUSE OF THEM. That’s the advantage of having a very large CONFIRMED user population on the order of many tens of thousands who have almost all had POSITIVE RESULTS. Those positive results were obviously obtained in every possible situation, not only the ones you refer to but many others. Thus, without further ado, I hereby throw all the negative results out. You know, Wolfie, Mapman, whoever.
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