I'd say that the engineers behind PS Audio and Wyred4Sound fit that descriptor to an engineered "T".
I find it funny that when one side comes up with a better argument than the other side (who can be shown to be downright nasty), or fighting fire with fire, as it's termed, that other side gets their panties up in an uproar.
Not a very well "engineered" argument, huh?
All the best,
Nonoise |
this has nothing whatsoever to do with audio and it’s sound, it’s more to do with longevity and resistance to corroding, caused by age and many switch on surges just like this Oh, but it does, Georgie. Just think of all the money you can save by getting something like a Bussman fuse. I know that $4 is pretty heady stuff, to be sure, but it would cost less than what you’re accustomed to paying, considering how many times you’ve told us you replace those cheaper fuses. And, you wouldn’t have the ability to show how it doesn’t age due to it’s ceramic body, but at least we’d be spared that same, boring slideshow you keep linking to. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
For those who still refuse to "know" how an aftermarket fuse works: HRC Fuse consists of highly heat resistant material (such as ceramic) body having metal-end caps, which is welded by silver current carrying element. The fuse body internal space is completely packed with a filling powder. The material, which has filled the insider space, may be plaster of Paris, quartz, chalk, marble, dust and cooling mediums etc. That’s why it carries normal current without overheating. The heat being produced vaporizes the silver melted element. Chemical reaction taking place between silver vapor and filling powder results in high resistance substance, which helps in quenching the arc in fuse.
and, - It clears high as well as low fault currents.
- Do not deteriorate with age.
- Having high-speed operation.
- Provides reliable discrimination.
- Require no maintenance.
- Cheaper than other circuit interrupting devices with same rating.
- Permit consistent performance
- Fusing operation is fast without Noise and Smoke
This is from a normal site on fuses, based on years old knowledge, and available to anyone who would care to look at it. But that would be akin to actually trying it, wouldn't it? All the best, Nonoise |
A surge protector, with it's MOVs, is only in the A/C path and yet it has negative effects on the sound. If you can't agree with that, then go ahead and think fuses have no impact on the sound.
All the best,
Nonoise |
It's a generational thing. What's the matter with kids today? |
For those advocating a tally on those who think aftermarket fuses work and if they've tried them, it's already being done by Doug on the thread titled We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses | Audiogon Discussion Forum. That kind of went the way of the Do Do as all the usual suspects, like the ones here, saw it as another opportunity to derail a perfectly good discussion. As I've said before, and as others have pointed out, there's more here than just denial. All the best, Nonoise |
Hey everyone, I removed my own post as I thought it was a bit too snarky. Right before I hit enter, I knew it was a bit too dark, though still in line with what's current (pardon the pun).
All the best,
Nonoise |
I now regret deleting my earlier post from this thread.
It was apropos. |
What about the fuses I’ve linked to that use powder to keep the temp down so it doesn’t age the same as the fuses you use? They’re readily available, cost only $4 apiece, and perform better. They’ve been around for many years and the technically proficient know of them.
It’s the type of fuse that aftermarket makes based their audio fuses on with an ear and eye towards bettering the sound, and admittedly, making a profit on. You don’t need to spend what SR changes unless you like the results you get as there are well made ones for a lot less. But to each, their own. Get a new hobby horse, George.
All the best,
Nonoise |
George,
Then why, oh why, do you hawk like a harpy with shots of ancient fuses that no one in their right mind (except you, maybe) would advocate using? It can’t be to prove a point because it’s been shot down many times over and it’s only when I give you an opening, that there are fuses that can protect as well as sound better, you chomp down on it like the dog who chased the car?
What does a mouth full of car taste like? Similar to crow?
It’s been painfully pointed out, and most likely glossed over by you, that those better $4 fuses are a starting point for audiophile fuses. Those very same $4 fuses have been evaluated many years ago and though they sound better than the cheap ones you’ve been shouting about, there are still better ones out there. Those other fuses have been tested and refined over the years and thousands of satisfied audiophiles are enjoying a better listening experience for it.
And, as for your "gods", you may have a need to worship them on false premises, but don’t think for a moment, that anyone else does to the exclusion of what could be a better listening experience.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Many feel that the hyperbole attached to subjectively experienced esoteric tweaks is worthy of discussion, and even though disagreements occur, I imagine most should be able to handle it and not feel personally offended. With just a change or two: Many feel that the hyperbole attached to subjectively held beliefs they feel to be beyond reproach due to their basis on the limits of what we know is worthy of discussion, and even though..... It's not one sided, like the picture you paint. There is no high ground of any sort here, only two (or more) sides to all of this, so yes, most shouldn't take it personally. All the best, Nonoise |
FusesJoin Our CommunitySubscribe to Paul's PostsFebruary 29, 2016 by Paul McGowan Here’s a subject that simply drives some people nuts. Fuses. Change the power fuse in a DAC or preamp and the sound changes, depending on the type of fuse you change to. I first became aware of fuses and their sonic differences in the 1980s. We were working on releasing the 200C power amplifier, designed by Bob Odell. This 200 watt per channel amplifier was the best sounding power amplifier we had ever produced and we labored long and hard polishing every part and decision to perfection. In those days we relied upon an output fuse to protect the loudspeaker and the amp from each other. Too much current passes through the amp and the fuse blows, disconnecting the power amp’s output. The prototype amplifiers didn’t have output fuses. It wasn’t until we got to the production versions that we added them, and that’s when the trouble started. The production amplifier didn’t sound as good as the prototype: thinner, weaker, with less bloom and midbass strength, relative to the prototype. Why the two sounded so different was a real head scratcher. When faced with such differences, you start removing any changes between the two until they sound the same. It didn’t take long before we discovered it was the damn output fuse. Short it with a clip lead and the fullness of the music returned. This vexed us greatly because we wanted the sound of no fuse while enjoying the benefits of its protection. Different types of fuses sounded differently too. We gold plated the fuse and its holder to see if that would help. It did. But not a lot. We even tried bypassing it with a small capacitor. That helped to, but wasn’t a good idea. And neither solved the problem. In the end we came up with a clever scheme. We took the feedback for the amplifier not from the amplifier’s output, but from the output of the fuse. Thus, the fuse was included in the amplifier’s corrective feedback loop, and the fullness returned to the music. (For those of you giving this some thought, we also added a 100Ω resistor in parallel with the fuse so if the fuse blew the amp would remain stable). With the clarity of hindsight there are many explanations of why this mattered, damping factor changes not the least of them. The point of the story is simple. Fuses matter. But why should they matter in the AC circuit? I don’t have a great answer handy. But we’ll look some more tomorrow. I thought this would add some perspective as it comes from a very talented amp builder. All the best, Nonoise |
And, I’d like to ask if anyone knows whether after this discovery, that lots of amps are now designed with the fuse "in the feedback loop" and as a result, will definitely sound better with a better made fuse.
And as a result, has the "manual" that naysayers refer to been updated to reflect this.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
But I do not care because me likes it. That has to be the most salient comment on this thread. 👍 😄😜😂 |
One can google to see that some modders eliminate the soldered in fuse on their mods. OPPPMOD and Clones power supply boards do away with the soldered in fuses as well. Also, I believe OPPOMOD upgrades the fuse as well as part of their work, or it could be Clones (I forget).
Frankly, anything that can do away with the fuse, retaining the designers goals, while maintaining safety, would benefit everyone.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
Something tells me that if George were subjected to a Rorschach test, all he would see are slowly aging fuses. |
When the law is on your side, you argue the law.
When the facts are on your side, you argue the facts.
When neither are on your side, you pound the table.
George, stop pounding the table.
All the best,Nonoise |
But the assumption that they can have any effect on the tone of an electrical circuit seems silly to most people who know about such things. Pot meet kettle. Your premise is faulty and you speak from a supposed higher ground. I do believe you've tried them and didn't hear enough of a difference to justify the costs but it has been pointed out, repeatedly, that one need not spend over $100 to get demonstrable improvements (more like $30) and yet you continue to put forth that silly argument as if it's the only recourse one can take with better fuses. When I was on the lookout for a new set of speakers I read your take on the Klipsch Heresey III as they were what I was leaning towards. What got my attention was your admonition to others to not tell you to replace the brass jumpers as something so small couldn't make a difference. Really? If that was in jest, then it was kind of a weird thing to say. If you were serious, then your hearing acuity is not what it used to be. Not being able to tell if brass jumpers are able to mess with the sound tells me why you can't hear a significant difference with better fuses. Or, you do hear a difference but simply don't think it's worth it, and that is an entirely different matter. All the best, Nonoise |
Now that takes a lot of chutzpah to recommend fuses from the ’60s that were good enough for NASA. I guess we can trash all of our modern gear as well and literally live in the past, forever fearful of progress or anything that would upset our primitive ways of thinking. This is an extreme version of conservatism. And lets not have anyone conflate that comment with politics, for it’s not.
Oh, and you need a new set of flashcards, George.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
George, look before you post. That way it won't look so bad.
jetter, it must be frustrating, indeed, to be you. |
I never worry when someone invokes kharma. Lots of people mistakenly think it means revenge and are content to use it as a device than can take care of someone when they lack the means to do so themselves.
Kind of sad, in a kharmic sense, but it brings a smile to my face.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Thanks, Al, for always being the consummate gentleman. Your approach has always been welcomed, appreciated, and serves as a guiding principle in how to simultaneously take a side and let sleeping dogs lie.
Your lawyerly skills were on full display and others can learn something from them. 👍
Even me.😄
All the best,
Nonoise |
Does anyone know just how a fuse is made? I know there are no fairies soldering both ends of the "wire" in the same manner to the insides of both end caps.
Are both ends a mirror copy of each other in the way they're made and the way they look? Or does one end have more material than the other?
Just asking.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
The real answer for the audible effects is simply the “power of suggestion” So thousands of people who do hear a difference are imagining it and about a dozen who haven't tried it know better. That makes a lot of sense. All the best, Nonoise |
What doesn’t make sense is why proponents such as yourself don’t take me up on the opportunity before you. You know, the Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob repeat a few more times and see if you can guess right test.
It's because I don't believe in cheap parlor tricks. I trust my ears: something you can very easily do, but won't. I think it may be that statements like these, which indicate "digging one's heels in", is becoming painfully apparent as the naysayers refuse to concede the point that there is more than enough empirical evidence from novice enthusiasts to the very well heeled EE types that have tried fuses and hear the difference, even though measurements can't detect a difference. They're down to a few, standard lines of rebuttal now and seem quite silly by using them over and over. Cognitive Dissonance could be the answer. All the best, Nonoise |
Opps, Al beat me to it while I typed it in. |
@swampwalker
If I remember correctly, Al is/was a patent lawyer, among his many achievements. Either way, I do agree that a lot of accomplished people can do with more discipline from other studies. 👍
(myself included) 😖
All the best,
Nonoise |
Sometimes it’s hard to admit you were wrong, or at least, fully aware of the situation after taking a stand. I’ve eaten enough crow to consider it an entree to avoid but it doesn’t negate the fact that I’ve passed it a few times, feathers and all. It didn’t lessen me, but it did make me more careful. In fact, I have a crow tattooed on my forearm out of respect.
All the best,
Nonoise |
jetter,
I've always considered the source when responding. That, and I don't think teo audio or uberwaltz needs to be grouped with my experiences to make a point.
As for "ignoring them", how's that going?
All the best,
Nonoise |
Thanks for stopping by. 👍
Next time do bring your dog. 🐶 |
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|
If you've ever seen a video of fuses being made, there's nothing graceful about it. They'd have to test each and every fuse for directionality, adding to the cost.
It's really simple enough to figure out for oneself as the results are immediately apparent.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@mitch2 This video of a typical fuse factory shows the rough and tumble a fuse goes through before it’s even sorted and packed. By the time it is finished, there’s no way to tell unless you test each and every fuse. I'm assuming that aftermarket fuses are made in the same manner, just to different specs and treatment. All the best, Nonoise |
"...And when I bought it not half an hour ago, you assured me that its lack of movement was due to it being tired and shagged out after a long squawk."
"It's probably pining for the fjords."
"Pining for the fjords, what kind of talk is that?"
Appropo. Nice and deft touch there, uberwaltz. |
@mitch2
I saw that same video as well. One has to assume that the end caps are all the same when set up for the first round of install and that the ceramic tubes are all facing the same way when inserted. That's a lot of assuming. If they did, wouldn't it slow down production, being so exacting?
Also, aftermarket fuse makers have already stated that if you think the fuse is directional, try it for yourself, probably for the reasons mentioned.
All the best,
Nonoise |
What is it with all of the grouping going on? This is a great example of tribalism, Heck, it's almost like gang-banging--my group against your group. Primitivism at it's best. It's what the insecure do when confronted and they've run out of anything valid to say.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I didn't mean to come on like a big 'ol bucket of cold water with the tribalism schtick but when I saw that George was going over a member's past posts to see if he could recruit him left coffee on my monitor.
I had just woken up after sleeping in and my fingers got the better of me.
All the best,
Nonoise |
How about,
The unexamined life is not worth living.
(Can that pertain to fuses?)
Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.
( I wonder if a different fuse can better my sound.)
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.
(I don’t want to know if another fuse sounds better.)
There seems to be a common thread to his thinking.....
Socrates would have at least tried a different fuse before taking his life
at the behest of the audio naysayers.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@gdhal
Not bad. I had to read up on Jerry Garcia’s take on pop memes, cynics, patriotism, and the impeachment of Tricky Dick (I was never a Dead Head). Not sure how it ties in with the thread (unless it’s the word "fuse"as a reference) but Ship of Fools came out at the same time and I see how that ties in with the impeachment as well.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@gdhal
It takes a high opinion of oneself to consider anyone reading these threads to be naive, setting yourself up as some kind of savior.
Period.
Going back over the fuse threads there are lots of people who've tried them, like them, but wisely stay off threads like this. Why get into a pissing contest when you know how to spell your name in the snow?
No need to whip it out again. 😄
All the best,
Nonoise
|
Point taken, teo_audio.
As it stands, my stereo can beat up their stereo.
Henceforth, I'm outta here. |
It's good to see that a fuse thread is finally staying on the subject of fuses. I'm glad the mods did whatever they did to stop the intentional ruin of yet another fuse thread. Last night was surreal, to say the least.
All the best,
Nonoise |
|
My Littelfuse fuses are made from superior materials, No, they aren't. You must have missed it back when I posted the make up of fuses (from a site on fuses) that states they're made of cheap tin and various metal alloys with a cheap nichrome wire for the element. Why they "might" work is guessing. Sure, as long as they "measure" about the same. Has anyone bothered to measure them after swapping out the fuse? Like teo_audio stated, with an analyzer? They sure don't sound the same. As someone else has pointed out, it does more than protect. An amp or any piece of gear that uses a fuse won't work unless it's installed. That says a lot about the fallacy that all it does is protect: it has influence beyond merely protecting. As Paul MacGowan pointed out in the link I provided earlier, the amp he helped design sounded horrible after implementing the fuse. It introduces something into the equation. All the best, Nonoise |
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Careful guys, if you haven't been paying attention--the mods will delete posts like the last two.
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I'm kind of jealous, uberwaltz. Enjoy the new Blue Fuse. |
Wait a minute. Those who rely on measurements alone as the final word on anything are now saying that should a fuse change show a difference in a measurement, that the difference can't be solely attributed to the fuse?
That the difference can not be determined to be enough to be heard?
That the difference has to be of a large enough nature to be valid?
That the difference cannot be determined to be better?
The test cited showed a difference in what could be heard. It was small but it could be heard. It could be determined to be better since that difference has to be folded back into the file to be appreciated.
The sum is greater than the parts.
It shows a distinct difference, no matter the size. That is what is important. Anyone could reasonably come to the conclusion that having more info would be an improvement. There are now more clues to enhance the performance.
There were too many sophistic caveats weaved into that argument, which would come handy in a kangaroo court setting, but not in audio, where incremental improvements are the norm, and to be expected.
All the best,
Nonoise
|
Mapman,
I can see how someone who doesn’t believe in aftermarket fuses would think their contribution a devilish one, should they make a difference, as it would violate an almost religious tenet of theirs. 😄
All the best,
Nonoise |
