nonoise - In the case of this thread, I agree. Oregonpapa (Frank) would probably love to have that ability to keep this thread going the way it was intended. @nonoise Terrific!! Your statement begs the question: In the case of which thread would you *disagree* with my suggestion? |
prof - ....And my own blind tests have given me personal acquaintance with just how easy it is to think I perceive a sonic difference that isn't really there. .... +1 And the proponents are admitting they are not blind testing, including all the wrong reasons (delusion, denial and invalidity of test) presented by GK. Very puzzling to say/write the least, especially given how enjoyable it can be to **listen** to Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob, repeat a few times and see if you can guess right. Simple. |
geoffkait - I realize this remark will be met with some skepticism, but there has never been an audiophile tweak that has been proven to be a hoax or a fraud. Sorry for bursting any bubbles. My proposed test isn't meant to nor will it prove anything. But it can be useful to demonstrate if what someone claims to hear they actually can hear, or are merely in a state of delusion. In other words, you are correct. It won't prove a fuse is or isn't a hoax or a fraud. But it will provide opportunity to offer into evidence whether or not the impossible, is possible. Sorry for bursting any bubbles. |
maplegrovemusic - All this talk of do these fuses work or not has lead me to the conclusion I must learn how to measure my system....Or one of the naysayers take measurements ?
Of course fuses work. I realized this first hand very long ago when my carver receiver for some reason drew to much power. The fuse blew. I replaced it with another one I bought at radio shack, where they happened to have a "5 pack" of the same voltage/amperage fuse. I still have 4 left, and they are in a little green tin from a company called "Littlefuse" (subsidiary of Tracor). They must be 30 years old. Anyway, at the time I replaced the blown fuse with the first one in the package, I didn't care (or know or even think to care) about its direction. Nothing on the green tin from the manufacturer about direction either. I turned on the receiver. It worked. It sounded exactly the same as it did with the original fuse that it came with. I didn't feel the need to scrutinize the sound to even try and determine if there was the slightest difference. It never blew again. I didn't think any measurement was necessary. I still don't. I don't believe there is anything more the fuse is supposed to do than protect my carver amp from voltage/amperage spikes, which it did. Therefore, again, nothing to measure. Had I heard a difference or thought I heard a difference, I would have investigated further. So, I'm hopeful that the fuses in my current amp, DAC and speakers will provide the same level of protection if and when needed. |
nonoise - That was the most self contradictory thing I’ve read in a long, long time. This is a relief. For moment I thought whatever I wrote wasn’t even being read. The next step would be in the understanding of what has been written. The "spirit" and "essence" of what is written, as well. |
tommylion - ....It is patently ridiculous to say that I can't trust my own ears to tell me whether or not a particular change in my system makes a positive difference in my enjoyment of music. You're entirely correct. I'm certainly *not* saying you can't or shouldn't trust your own ears. That said, wouldn't you trust your own ears even more so if you heard whatever it is that makes a positive difference, after you've subjected yourself to a blind test and drew the same conclusions? In this context, I'm speaking of a simple blind test, for your own edification. Reason I ask is I've read a lot of posts where once someone hears something sighted, they no longer hear the same thing non-sighted. |
prof - ...This is why you can tell someone to judge between cable A and cable B, and even if you don’t even actually switch cables (only ever play cable A), people will often enough still report hearing a "difference" when you "switch."
(And this is one reason why in blind testing you randomize switching - and you can see this effect show up in the scoring of cable differences).... +1 Everyone please take note. This statement of prof’s is precisely what I have proposed in my Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob test. Note that in that case *I CAN* hear a difference 100% of time, even if you try and fool me by claiming you put Bob on and really didn’t. So too should you be able to do this when reversing ordinary fuse/speaker wire. SHAME ON YOU! You know who you are. |
geoffkait - ...By the way it sounds like you’re changing your tune. Aren’t you a big fuse skeptic?... No. I’m not a **fuse** skeptic. See my response 04-15-2018 10:21pm I’m skeptical of individuals who state the **impossible**, which is that they can audibly detect with the naked ear whether or not an ordinary fuse/speaker wire has been reversed. See my 04-16-2018 5:52am post. EDIT: Pop! 🎈 |
geoffkait - spaceman, Do I need a decoder ring to figure out what in heck you’re trying to say? 👨🚀 I could cry foul at this point. Do you honestly mean to state you don't understand geoffonese? 😮 |
@prof
You should be applauded and commended. So please allow me to do just that.
In my opinion, your written responses are so compelling, that if those you have addressed your response to don't "get it" by now, trust me, they never will.
Here is some more Bob Dylan for the fusers, as if my Amy > Bob test isn't compelling enough.
Well it ain't no use to sit and wonder why, babe
Ifin' you don't know by now
🎸
|
clearthink - There is no argument with FAITH belief religion and actually FAITH needs no defense it just IS. It is your belief. True. Seems as though you are thinking clearly. |
jay23 - If you have no intention of trying the product, why bother to spend your time here? I don't know about prof, but I'm waiting to read what the next color will be and how much more of an improvement can be realized by using it. 😅 |
Spoken like a gentleman sir!
Wish a few more had the same grace and manners whilst wielding the hot iron of philosophical debate!
Kudos! +1 I sent him my kudos earlier as well. Note the testing I've been advocating is precisely what prof has described, albeit I prefer his write-up. |
uberwaltz, I remain appreciative of your gentlemanly like demeanor, despite the fact that we are at opposite sides of the "fuse" (pun intended). I'm happy to extend a free music download to you, available as flac or shn via download URL I would provide you via PM. No obligation, only if you find something interesting and to your liking. If deep purple is your preference (again, pun intended), I have many more shows not even listed. http://halr.x10.mx/other.html http://halr.x10.mx/shows.html I promise, it will sound grate regardless of how your fuse(s) are oriented. :)
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Only GK may have the last word. It's tradition. 😑 |
mapman - ...A clever way it would seem for one who can apparently read other’s minds to discredit others if they do not drink their kool aid! ...
I recommend *ELECTRIC* kool aid 😄 |
^Read. And you're correct, it is sad. |
uberwaltz - Question for anybody? Does the OPPO udp205 contain an internal fuse at all? If so do we know the size?
Hi uberwaltz. I have an Oppo 205, but do not know the answer to your question. That said, I can tell you that Oppo support is very helpful and forthcoming. Perhaps they can answer your question. 🙂 |
tel555 - ...This thread is now in its death throes..... Peace out. @tel555 I have good reason to believe you know nothing about peace. Interesting how this thread and Bob Dylan continue to have something in common. "You know sometimes Satan comes as a man of peace" |
uberwaltz - Seems that the OPPO udp205 is another unit with a fuse soldered onto the mains board.
Phooey!
Why phooey? Maybe OPPO **KNOWS** that no upgrade is needed and/or possible where the fuse is concerned. Just a thought. :) EDIT: And by soldering it, what OPPO is essentially meaning is they don't need any more "dramatica" 🤣 |
geoffkait - .....Who knows, if OPPO has used upgraded fuses or put the stock fuses in the right direction maybe they’d still be in business. They are still in business... very much so in fact.... don’t take my word for it though...call them or send an email that you have an issue with your OPPO....see how responsive they are......or just read their public domain literature on how they intend to provide product/customer service for /to existing customers.... How is your business doing? 😧 Who knows, if OPPO *did* use "upgraded" fuses or cared to try any fuse in the "right direction", maybe they’d have been "out of business" sooner. 😀 |
^Yes but, even if the expectation is that an authorized service person will replace the fuse when needed, it still creates more of a dilemma for said service person. Soldering doesn’t seem to make sense in any scenario.
Having said that, I’m expecting the advocates of SR to weigh in that once the correct direction (in their view, remember, I’m in the camp who believes the direction is irrelevant) is known, soldering would theoretically be better from a sound quality perspective (in their view, remember, I’m in the camp where the sound quality has nothing to do with a fuse) because conceivably there is more contact area or who knows what else at play.
Soldering a fuse - or any item for that matter - which is meant to "blow" and then be replaced if required just doesn’t seem to make sense to solder. |
mapman - Don’t be so easily deterred. The soldering iron needed to fix that costs way less than the fuse.
This is hysterical 🤣 mapman - Has anyone soldered a SR fuse in before? This could take things to even more extraordinary new heights! Use gold solder! Maybe shmear some Total Contact in there as well just to be safe. Assuming it's not flammable....
Please stop 🤣 |
Thank you
@mapman
I needed a good laugh. And let's face it, we all could use one from time-to-time.
Serious question though for the entire group (i.e. any side of the fence) - and I respectfully ask the OP to entertain this question for a moment - why would any manufacturer solder a fuse to the board? Seems a bit user "un-friendly". I cant imagine why a fuse (again, any stock, aftermarket, whatever direction) should be "permanently" (of course, I understand nothing is permanent) affixed. Pain in the unmentionable if it blows.
Thoughts? |
uberwaltz - You are correct Geoff but on the 95 at least it was not soldered to the board. +1 And, the soldering vs non-soldering would be irrespective to whether or not the fuse is situated inside, outside or the "geoffside". 😁 |
mapman - .....Also slo blo fuses can melt partially and have an effect on performance and sound.....
This is interesting for me to understand, and something I wouldn’t have considered. Thanks .
And thank you, OP. This ends my inquiry/question into the solder vs typical holder scenario. EDIT: Even if "partially blown" in the case of slow blow, it would still seem more advantageous to have the fuse "readily accessible" and able to be replaced instead of having to bust out the soldering iron, or in my case, have a tech do it. |
Thank you
@almarg
Always a pleasure to read from you in any thread and on any topic. Note that my question wasn’t specific to the OPPO though. EDIT: or an internal or external fuse.
In the case of the question I’ve posed, I’m inclined to believe what mapman has stated "it makes a better and more robust connection".
I remain grateful to everyone to be able to participate in this forum. Regardless of your opinions, beliefs, etc. about fuses and all of the other equipment here on Audiogon. Remember that it wouldn’t really mean anything without the music itself 🎵
Something we all can share and should find in common 🙂
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^Even you have to admit this is great humor though! 😄
EDIT:
But not as great as mapman's humor earlier though 🤣 |
@almarg
After re-reading your post, I've gotten a little more out of it.... akin to why a rabbi reads the torah over-and-over.....appreciated.... thanks! |
geoffkait - .... Trust me the world most modded OPPO would not (rpt not) have a fuse in it. Problem solved! 😀 Wrong!! Problem begins. 😀 That doesn't even need to be repeated. 😀 |
georgehifi - Don’t do this as paying up front conjures up "expectation bias" and many are "saying" it takes longer than 30days to so called "burn-in", instead ask for a sample to be sent out and if you like it you’ll pay for it, if not you’ll send it back at their expense, some one else bought this up a while back with this solution. If George’s statement is true - that SR demands payment prior to the time they also state said fuse takes to "burn-in", while also at the same time don’t allow/provide no questions asked return policy - clearly there would be "expectation bias" at play. The aforementioned stated, why wouldn’t they allow a return policy whereby the purchaser pays some kind of "restocking" fee? Dare I write..... Said fuse could then be sold as "black and blue". 😆 |
jafreeman - Not sure either--just that, the graphene is the breakthrough in the SR Blacks and Blues and is visible in the fuse body, so just what is it doing there if not enhancing conductivity? I propose it does enhance conductivity, but if the fuse element melts, the graphene by itself is unable to conduct the over-current. Any other ideas? Might the graphene be present for no other reason than the manufacturer wishes to distinguish themselves from "ordinary"? And, in so doing, justify (in their view) charging the consumer more? |
uberwaltz - .....It almost makes me embarrassed to have to keep saying they work in my system but they do to my ears.... @uberwaltz Hi uberwaltz. Despite the fact you and I are on opposite sides of the fence where fuses are concerned, I’m sure I don’t have to remind you we’ve had honest and friendly back-and-forth in this thread. So, it’s with respect that I submit to you I completely understand your position. It works! I can hear a difference! Therefore, everything else is essentially irrelevant. That said, when I asked if you performed a "blind test", you were candid and forthright to indicate that you did not. Wouldn’t it behoove you to do so? If your honest (with yourself in this case), I simply cannot understand why you wouldn’t. Thanks. |
geoffkait - ....Don’t follows leaders, watch parking meters.... Geoff, remember Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob 🤪 |
geoffkait - Oh, my! That’s so deep. If it gets any deeper in here I’ll have to put on my old hip waders. Well, I guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I instantly recognized a quote of yours earlier in the thread as belonging to the Bob Dylan song "Subterranean Homesick Blues". I keep forgetting, you don't actually listen to music. So it's no surprise you wouldn't have known. 😜 |
uberwaltz - I have no idea how I could even begin to do blind testing in my house.Who would change fuses for me? My wife?.... You're on the right track. By this I mean it certainly does require the assistance of another person whom you trust. Not knowing your particular circumstance, circle of friends, etc. I don’t know what else to suggest. A neighbor? |
uberwaltz - Gdhal..Please, what are friends? There are many definitions. I understand your point though. As I’ve continued to make reference to Bob Dylan throughout this thread, where (fuse) blind testing is concerned: "You’re in the wrong place, my friend, you better leave" |
prof - ...Blind testing can actually be a wonderful cure sometimes for "audiophile nervosa" :-).... Hi @prof Undoubtedly you already know I’m in agreement with everything you’ve posted in this thread. In the case of your above quoted statement, I would like to submit that you’ve made an error. It should read: Blind testing **IS ALWAYS** a wonderful cure for "audiophile nervosa" :-).. |
geoffkait ...What would constitute proof? .... Listen blind to Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob repeat a few more times and determine if you can guess right or not. |
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david_ten - @crazyeddy Cool. Look forward to hearing your take.
+1 However, there is something that IMO crazyeddy should keep in mind. And that would be there are plenty of non-favorable words mentioned in this thread, in addition to the favorably words he/she eludes to. Succinctly, please be reminded that you also should have read that expectation bias is at play. Therefore, please be honest with yourself, which realistically can only happen given a blind test. |
It's been so long since we've read from GK, I'm beginning to think he's on vacation
🤣
|
@crazyeddy
You're welcome. Best of luck with the fuse(s) and please do post your impressions. |
nonoise - ...One must first empirically observe something with (in this case) their own ears. if validation is necessary or demanded by someone else, then by all means, go and do the research yourself. Yes and no. The validation portion of the quoted statement cannot be done by anyone other than yourself. And you haven't been honest with yourself if you haven't tried your ears at a blind test. So the observation portion of your statement utilizes many more senses than just hearing; like sight and touch. thecarpathian - Um...how can anyone get ripped off when the seller offers a full money back guarantee? By spending $150 for something no different than what you could otherwise spend $2 on. |
nonoise - ...You speak of the necessity of testing myself which is hogwash. You keep on harping about this parlor trick of blind testing as if it’s something carved in stone that has to be obeyed. Again, hogwash.
You are no authority on the matter so stop speaking as if you are one. Your strictures have no bearing on me whatsoever so keep them to yourself.... Time out. Take a deep breath. Remain calm. I never stated, suggested or even implied I'm an authority on anything, let alone fuses. The remainder in all that I’ve written (recently herein this thread) really amounts to nothing more than a suggestion, that’s all. The suggestion is that you (or any proponent of SR fuses) remains honest WITH THEMSELF. So, there can be no parlor trick. No one for you to trick, except yourself. I’m out of the equation. Akin to what Jerry might say - there’s nobody messing with you, but you. So to reiterate, it is my belief that by your adamant refusal to do a blind test, you’re simply being dishonest with yourself. That’s all. Nothing to get upset over, if you can live with that, after spending $150 instead of $2. |
tommylion - I think you made a bet with a buddy that you could con some gullible audiophile into putting up $25,000, or however much, for your rigged blind test challenge. Give it up. People here are not as stupid as you think they are. My proposal at this stage has absolutely nothing to do with what you're stating (quoted above). The blind test I'm proposing would be conducted in its entirety by *you* under *your* own terms. The idea/concept is to be honest - with yourself. I'm going further to point out that if you - tommylion - do as I suggest (blind test), it shall be you who "gives it up". nonoise - ....It's just that you're a broken record.... I have no vinyl or analog what-so-ever in my rig. Trust me. nonoise - ...Most times you can come across as nice and accommodating....
Thank you. I think the same of you. |
|
Reads as though someone blew-a-fuse. 😋 |
^Thanks for CLEARING things up. |
Is there dissension in the ranks? ⚔️ |
