Well, let me specify that I was able to integrate them seamlessly (to my ears) in a relatively small room (something like 13x18).
The only caveat is that it took a while to figure out how to place them on the Gradient woofers. Once their feet are taken out, the ESL's sit on whatever flat surface in a slightly bent way. Well, that is definitely not the right position. They have to be perpendicular to the woofer in order to obtain the best sound. It is possible that some of the complaints I heard above have something to do with the position of the ESL's. |
Mrtennis, yes, that would be a nice test for everyone -- I think we're deeply biased in the way we listen to our equipment. In the end what matters is the survival test: how long has amplifier x or speaker y lasted in my system? If it's more than 1 year, then it means our ears really like it. If after a few months I begin to question it, then it means there is something wrong. In my case, so far the two things that lasted the most are my EAR 868 power amp and my ESL 57. |
In my prior post I meant my EAR 890...the 868 is something I am now considering. |
Detlof, your comment about using pillows to get the ear to the right height reminds me of my struggles to get it right. As I said in my prior comment, I ended up bending the 57 slightly forward. That changes the radiation pattern so that you don't have to use cushions or anything like that. By the way, I use a digital source to drive the gradients, and a tube amplifier to drive the quads. I don't think the gradients are terribly sensitive to the amplifier you use...just use something that is more than 50W per channel and you're ok. |
you guys are terrible...and fun!
seriously, i think short-term listening sessions are quasi pointless. i am pretty sure that a serious brain scientist will be able to offer a scientific explanation for this, but i find myself liking more things than i should after short listening sessions. i begin to have a feel for the real essence of any component only after weeks of serious listening. i believe that these short listening sessions are biased by many things that have little to do with audio (e.g. you read a review that says amplifier x has great imaging, you listen to it, and your brain starts to image like crazy). it would be interesting to see if there are ways to unbias yourself when you do quick tests of this sort. |
Pryso, That's a very interesting point, but I am not sure I fully agree. That is, you are certainly right that different human brains, different backgrounds, different professions, et cetera et cetera make for different tastes. But if there is a real thing, and the notion of closest is referred to that real thing, how can it be that there isn't an objective way to define what "closest" mean?
In other words, one may have a taste for a bombastic bass, or for an incredibly acute tweeter, or for microscopic detail...and that is all good and respectable...but that ain't the real thing...in my humble opinion. |
Pryso, this is an interesting discussion...human ears differ, and so does our definition of what is real. On the other hand, do we have instruments that capture the true "physics" of a sound? To the extent that we have such instruments, and I am not sure we do, that is what I would consider the real thing. But you're absolutely right: our ears might differ, and very much so...and what each of us considers to be the real thing might differ big time. But if this is the case, all of our discussions should be pointless: what for me is "good" and "real" for you might be a big distortion of reality. From this standpoint, the quality of a system is a totally subjective notion. My belief is that there are ears that get closer than other do to the real thing as it can be objectively measured. These more educated ears are better equipped than others are in assessing the quality of a system. In other words, I wouldn't let the lack of education (in our ears) undermine the notion that there are better systems out there...but of course this is only my opinion, and I respect yours. |
Martykl, you're basically saying that the real thing has lots of dimensions, and that there is no such a thing that gets close to it along all dimensions...there are always tradeoffs.
Can you single out one or two dimensions that a quad + woofer doesn't deliver very well on (beyond sheer power, which is something I am not too concerned about -- what I have is more than enough for my room)? If so, is there anything one can do to improve the performance of a quad-based rig along these dimensions? |
Detlof, I thing we substantially agree. For me there are three things:
a) the actual reproduction of the real thing
b) our perception of the reproduction, which may differ by individuals
c) our taste
These are three different things, and I don't think we should confuse them.
a) is objective, and if we had a tool that could measure how close we get to the real thing along a number of dimensions (like a scale that measures weight), there would be no ambiguity about it. Too bad we don't have such a machine
b) is subjective by definition, but I agree with you and ears can be trained...and significantly so
c) has nothing to do with a and b. A friend of mine loves microscopic details. Too bad these details cannot be heard in life performances. Another friend of mine likes to hear big vibrations in his belly...too bad you can't hear them in a real concert.
In short, I think the fact that a few things get closer than others to the real thing is an objective fact, in my view. The fact that we as individuals may or may not perceive that is another truth. Finally, the fact that we may like the "closest approach" or not is another truth, but this has nothing to do with the other things. |
All right, guys, my main takeaway from this very interesting thread (beyond the philosophical questions we've been discussing) is that I am probably stuck for a long time here (although I really like the way the Gradient Helsinki look, not to speak of some Sonus Faber's and one day or another I might give it a try...). I still have some tweaking to do with the electronics -- my power amp, the EAR 890, is just superb, but the preamp, an old SS Klyne, may not be the best fit. Looks like a Shindo preamp might be my next upgrade. |
