tuners i like that i've heard include the magnums, the onix bwd1 w/soap p/s, the naim & linn tuners, revox, & the sequerra. also, the tandberg 3001/3001a - isn't this one the one yer referring to, dschoenberg? i had a 3011a in my home for a week & was thoroughly unimpressed. tuener i've heard good things about, but have no 1st-hand experience include the mac 67/71/78, the yamaha ct7000, the sansui tu-x1, the marantz 10 b, the fisher fm1000, and the kenwood lo7 (i think that's the model). doug |
hi bart,
save yer money, & do not purchase *either* tuner. there's literally dozens of vintage tuners that will outperform either of these, and the most expensive will cost ) go here for great tuna info:
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/
here's the forum site for tuna:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmtuners/
regards,
doug s., so many tunas, so little time... ;~) |
sean,
your comments about fmtunerinfo.com yust reinforce what i believe to be true about *all* audio gear, only more so, for tunas. :>) it's the fact that system synergy, tastes, & room is key. it's more-so for tunas, because you also have to take into account your location, as the same tuna can sound different, depending on location/signal.
the reviews & comments on the fmtunerinfo site (especially jim rivers' "shootouts") should only be used as a guide - i, too, have different results for some tunas than what's posted on the site, tho some i agree with. a couple examples:
1) the revox b760 rates really well, while its identical-sounding (imo) sibling the b261 ranks poorly. i owned both, & they were absolutely identical - both supurb, if not quite up to the standards of my faves. i kept the b261 & sold the b760 cuz i preferred the ergonomics of the b261, if not the looks.
2) the tandberg 3011 rates pretty well, but i found mine to be worse than a pedestrian adcom gft-1a. (the adcom, btw is at least as good as any magnum-dynalab ft101, imo...)
3) the mitsubishi da-f20, is ranked at the top of the "m" class, yust below the bottom "c" class tuna, the revox b760. imo, the mitsu is definitely a better sonic performer than the revox, & at least as good from a sensitivity standpont as well. other tuna that i like better than the revox, that are even further down on the "shootouts" list include the sumo charlie & the pioneer f-91. i also like my technics st-9030 better, but it's been modded. but, based upon my experience w/a stock st-8600, which is not as good a tuna as the st-9030, i would surmize that even stock, the st-9030 would be at least as good as a revox b760. other tunas that i think are at least as good as the b760 include the sansui tu-717 & yamaha t2.
re: the review "shootouts" done by jim rivers, you must realize this is one person's opinion, based upon results obtained w/an all-toob system in a 12x14 room. and, you must also realize how close the sonics are, of the tunas he likes. what is telling to me is something like this one example - the pioneer f-91 is presently ranked 43rd out of the 79 tunas reviewed up to this point. jim, referencing the f-91 to his top-ranked kenwood l-02t says this:
"...In a large room, in a big sound system, I might choose this Pioneer over the L-02T...."
this (and my own personal experience), tells me that there are really more similarities than differences between good tunas. vintage tuna is cheap enuff so that you can buy several, keep the one(s) you like, & sell the rest, w/o losing any money. you certainly don't need to drop big bucks on something like a md-108. ;~)
and it's also enlightening to know that jim rivers' absolute fave tuna - better in his opinion than the accuphase t109v, kenwood l-02t, etc, is one that can be picked up for less than $100, and modded w/less than $100 worth of parts. (or pay someone like bill ammons ~$300 to do one up for ya, if yure not into diy.) i'm talking about the kenwood kt-7500, one that in stock form ranks near the bottom of jim's shootout list. i happen to own one of these, modded by bill ammons. it *is* nice - it makes *my* personal class-a list; but it's not my fave! :>)
doug s.,
so much tuna, so little time... |
hey blueranger, i have a completely refurb'd slightly modded tandberg 3001a. i also have several tunas i paid <$500 for, that i like at least as well or better. (and several more that i've already sold that were better than the tandberg.) make me an offer on the 3001a! ;~)
doug s. |
hi martin,
i dunno how to say this w/o being sorta insulting, but i cannot imagine *any* of the tunas i've listened to over the past coupla years that *don't* sound better than the mr78. reception, on the other hand, is a different story. the mr78 is acknowledged to be one of the best out there.
mind you, i have never heard the mr78. ;~) *but*, i *have* owned an mr77, which i had completely refurb'd. and the mr77 & mr74 are acknowledged by mcintosh afficianados to be the best sounding mcintosh s/s tunas. even richard modaferri, designer of both the mr77 & the mr78, has stated a properly aligned mr77 will sound better than even a modaferri-modded mr78. this info was related on the yahoo fmtuner forum.
so, i base my opinion of the mr78's sonics on my experience w/my refurb'd mr77. the mr77 was the *only* tuna out of a couple dozen i have owned over tha past coupla years that i would *not* be happy to have as my only tuna for sonic bliss. it had a flat soundstage, and lack of detail. it *was* sensitive, tho.
my fave tuna, for both sonics *and* sensitivity, is my modded harmon kardon citation-18. this guy yust does everything right sonically, *and* it's a signal hawk. other tunas i would recommend for sonics *and* reception, (my personal "class-a" list), include the nikko gamma 1, technics st-9030, accuphase t101, rotel rt-2100, mitsubishi da-f20, sumo aurora, roksan caspian, pioneer f-91, philips ah673, modded kenwood kt7500/kt8300, sony st es730s. these are the ones that make my personal class-a ranking for both sonics *and* reception.
others that make the reception grade, but are a tiny hair off the pace sonically, include the sansui tu-9900/tu-517/tu-717/tu-719, refurb'd tandberg 3001a, yamaha t-2, onix bwd-1 w/soap-2, revox b261/b760. note the sonic differences here are so slight that they'd be noticable w/my "class-a" list *only* in direct a-b comparison. any of these i could *easily* be satisfied with for long term listening. the difference here really *are* tiny.
then, there's the tunas that i consider class-a for sound, but a hair off the pace for reception. these would include the luxman t12, sumo charlie w/rack handles (non-rack-handle units not being aligned by its designer james bongiorno), philips 185.
also, an important note. except for the tunas i have noted as being refurb'd/modded, all these have had no recent work afaik. a proper refurb/alignment could easily have a major sonic/reception impact on these (or any) tunas.
the mr77 i owned, tho wery sensitive, yust dint sound good to me at all. my modded mcintosh mr65b tubed tuna, on the other hand, sounds great - in my class-b category, knocking on class-a's door. but you better be able to *see* the tower of the radio station yure trying to get! ;~)
regards,
doug s. |
hi martin,
i also forgot to mention the hitachi ht-8000 - another cheapie tuna that sounds fantastic, & has excellent sensitivity.
re: the kenwood kt-9900, i agree it is a miserable sounding unit stock - i owned one & was extremely disappointed. but, gawd, was it pretty! :>) i recommend it for mods, cuz the modded kt7550 i owned, (which isn't nearly as good stock as the kt-9900), was fantastic.
for mods i would recommend joseph chow or bill ammons. ed hanlon of aps does do good work, so i have been told by those i trust, but i, personally, couldn't send him my biz cuz he refused to provide answers to *any* questions you may have about what he does. i attempted to do biz w/him a coupla times, but didn't follow thru, cuz he was so rude to me, and accused me of trying to steal his "trade secrets"!?! the one time i did actually send him a tuna, it also needed repairs; he said he couldn't fix it, so he sent it back. the guy i sold it to was able to get it fixed no problem.
joseph chow adwertizes on agon. here's his website:
http://www.componentplus.us/pages/upgrades.html
and bill ammons' info can be found on the fmtunerinfo.com site. one caveat about mr. chow - you have to specifically ask him to replace & match the filters, it's not part of his normal procedure. (unless he's since changed this.)
bill ammons is *the man* when it comes to tuna, imo. i have also had decent results from stephen sank, who did my mr65b & hk citation 18, but i don't think he does filter matching/replacing, either... and, he takes *forever*.
regards,
doug s. |
lithojoe, the 4310 *is* the "close second best" scott tuna. :>) most tuna freaks will tell you that the 310d w/an outboard mpx decoder, or the 310e, are better sounding tunas than the 4310. (even most honest scott freaks will tell you this - the 4310 is a collectable.) most tuna freaks will also say the vintage fisher tunas like the fm90r, fm90x, etc, will *also* sound better than *any* of the scotts, tho they're not as sensitive. as will the 3000-series & above tubed sherwoods. again, the sherwoods aren't as sensitive.
so, i think it highly unlikely that a 4310 will crush everything. or even come close for that matter. i have yust sold a perfect 310d & its matching 335 mpx decoder; the decoder has been refurb'd. this combo *was* supurb, no doubt. and, its sensitivity *is* pretty amazing, for an old tube set-up. but its sonic performance, imo, is exceeded by the fisher/sherwoods mentioned above, as well as any number of other tunas i have owned or still own.
ymmv,
doug s. |
biomimetic, it is clear that you have only scanned the tic site & its related chat forum.
>>
huh? where else are you gonna find so much info about so many different tunas?
>>
huh? a close reading of the site makes it clear that there's scads of tunas, not yust kenwoods that are worthy of listening to. but, there's no escaping the fact that kenwood made way more than their share of tunas, which is why there's quite a few good tunas w/the name "kenwood" on it. and no, i am not a big kenwood fan - i tried & sold three...
>>
where on the site does it say there *is*? but, the fact is, specs *do* play a big part in the tuna ewaluations, which a close reading of individual tuna stats, & a following of the chat forum will indicate. and, the fact is, the participants are some of the best rf engineers around, & they *do* measurements. a *lot*.
>
want an explanation? ask on the forum; you will get lotsa opinions.
>>
again, ask, you will get answers. but, in fact, you are wrong, this info *is* given.
>>
as is your statement that this is what the tic & the forum say. again, you have to be more thorough in your readings.
>>
huh? there's so few flamewars on that site, it's amazing, quite frankly. of course, agon is so strongly moderated, there really isn't even a conversation flow here. :>/
>>
sounds like what happens w/all reports about all other gear in audiodom, no? tho i disagree that there are reports of good tunas that are actually sucky. of course, i *do* have disagreements w/the opinions/rankings of all the tunas over there, having tried almost a hundred different tunas in my home over the past few years. examples:
- the revox b261 is excellent - on par w/the b760. but, the mitsubishi da-f20 is better than both.
- the tandberg 3001a is *way* over-rated. a decent tuna, for sure, but a reliability nightmare, surpassed in sonics & reception by many many tunas. equaled in sonics & reception by something as cheap as the hitachi ft-8000.
- mcintosh s/s tunas are only so-so sounding, exceeded by so many tunas it isn't even funny. they are exceeded by most every tuna i have ever tried, in fact. they *do* certainly have excellent reception capabilities, tho.
so, does this mean that i am a white elephant? cuz i have opinions about tunas that you or others may not share? no - it's yust one more data point on the chart. which is all the info on the tic & its forum is or is meant to be.
relax & yust enjoy the magic of a good fm broadcast w/a quality tuna of your choice on a revealing rig! ;~)
ymmv,
doug s.
but not everyone hears the same, eh? |
Baselines are biased, when they appear, and the guys who run it all use more or less the same equipment (Kenwood), except for the one off-center guy who uses a *gasp* Sansui.
---1st of all, the above is not true. 2nd, the site is actively supported by over 3700 members. and, the sites opinions reflect the diversity of its members, not yust the opinions of the folks who run the site.
FYI- I actually use a Kenwood tuner, but I don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, which is my point: Accuphase, Sansui, Sony and several others all made great tuners you can pick up for around $60 now, that sound as good as many things that are hundreds of dollars more.
----i bought a modded kenwood kt-7550 the tuna that is the shootouts authors fave tuna. i liked it, but it was certainly not *my* fave. i have many other personal disagreements w/the shootouts rankings. but does this mean that i think the site has no useful info? absolutely not. i have a brain, & can separate the wheat from the chaff. ;~) actually the most meaningful statement in the shootouts, imo is where the author is comparing his top-dog kenwood l-02t tuna to the mid-pack pioneer f-91. (an excellent sounding tuna, imo, btw.) he states:
...In a large room, in a big sound system, I might choose this Pioneer over the L-02T...
i couldnt agree more, that the differences between good tunas are in fact quite small; this statement illustrates this fact quite succinctly.
and, *PLEASE* - tell me where i can find a sansui tu-517 or better, or *any* accuphase tuna for $60! :>) not interested in the sony's; i already know of fantastic $60 tunas from philips/hitachi/nikko that aren't as ugly. ;~)
I didn't say that spec's don't effect things, but then again spec's aren't everything... ... so basically spec's can mean whatever you want them to, based on how you measure them...
---this cracks me up. earlier you complained that there arent specs or measurements, then you say they arent everything. :>)
...Fm Tuner Info though "has the answers" on "what's best" in the tuner world. Which is almost always a heads up that you are dealing with either an idiot or a zealot. Saying it sounds "good" to you based on some meaningless baseline is neither engineering or science...
---are you *sure* you didnt just scan the tic? perhaps you are reading a different site than the one i am reading. the one *i* read makes it perfectly clear that it does *not* have the answers. that what sounds good to one person may *not* sound good to someone else. that a tuna that sounds mid-pack in one system may be the best sounding tuna in another system. this is one of the reasons i like the site so much. the engineering & science it *does* stress is that of quality alignment/parts/rf engineering. stuff that many contributors to the site know a hell of a lot about.
It also has nothing to do with applied audio theory. Does anyone really believe that a 500w receiver from Best Buy is a true 500w and sounds better than a 20w tube amp? And anyway, what kind of 500w? Class A, AB or D? Am I supposed to be impressed? Because I'm not.
---again, i am not sure what site you are reading, cuz the above has nothing to do w/the tic which *i* read.
For instance someone made a key statement above: the Marantz 10B "can be" one of the best tuners out there when aligned correctly, etc. Well of course it can: it has one of the biggest plates around, the 805 tube, and so by virtue of electric theory it must be one of the most sensitive and widest in audio bandwidth. But not acccording to FM Tuner Info. Not the MR71 either. They found both "flabby" and "grainy". Well... you can pretty much stop right there, can't you? Because either they don't know how to properly align a tuner, they don't know how or when to change a tube, or they're deaf. I'm not a "the-more-expensive-it-is, the better it is" guy, but those two tuners are top notch."
---many many tuna aficionados do not like the 10b. actually, in the tuna world the 10b is a wery polarizing entity. and, i think the tics write-up of the 10b on its site is wery well-balanced, & accurately reflects the diwersity of opinion about this tuna. (in fact, one of the stellar attributes about the tic site, imo, is that it is so balanced in regards to most *every* tuna, giving, whenever possible, counterpoint opinions & other reference sources for those seeking more info.) so, no, i pretty much *cant* stop right there. again, it has me questioning whether or not you are looking at the same tic i am looking at. another point re: the 10b - many tuna & marantz aficionados think that in fact the 20b was the best tuna marantz ever made.
and nowhere on the tic could i find the words flabby or grainy mentioned w/either the 10b or the mr71. mebbe you are referring to someones opinion on the yahoo forum? or another site altogether? and, most (if not all) the time, the state of a tunas refurb/alignment is stated when its being talked about. re: the technical abilities of folks like bob fitzgerald , bill ammons, mike zucarro, mike williams, ken bernacky, ed hanlons secret tech, mark wilson, terry dewick, etc; you will not find better qualified tuna technicians *ANYWHERE*. jus cuz *you* think the 10b & the mr71 are top-notch, doesnt mean that they *are*. mebbe there's a disagreement about them between knowledgable people? mebbe others respect them, but like other tunas more? so this means that they are either poor techs, dont know when to change a tube, or are deaf? and you say the tic is the group that has issues? lol! :>)
One of the reasons I like 6 Moons even though many of their reviewers are about 180 degrees from where I am on the audiophile spectrum is they actually tell you what kind of music they like, the dB level they play it at, and what their favorite components and room treatments are, and how long they have had them. You can kind of relate to someone then, even if you wouldn't want their system. "I put it on my oscilliscope in my basement" and it "sounds good" isn't good enough... ...I mean seriously... ...would you buy a car from a guy who told you he had turned it on and it came on ok, so he's sure it "runs good"? I think not.
---i like 6 moons also. but the: "I put it on my oscilliscope in my basement" and it "sounds good" statement isnt even close to what the fmtunerinfo.com site is all about. not even a little bit close. like i said before, you either didnt look at the site thoroughly (there is a *lot* of info there), or you are looking at some *other* site. because surely you can comprehend what you are reading. you can, cant you? ;~)
ymmv,
doug s. |
"Well, Sedond, I guess you proved me wrong: some people DO believe everything they read on the internet."
----ok. i admit it, you got me - i believe everything i read on the internet. especially what i read on the fmtunerinfo.com site, (and its associated yahoo fm forum):
1)some people wrote that the marantz 10b tuna is the best tuna ever made. it must be true.
2)some people wrote that the marantz 10b tuna is a damned good tuna, but near impossible to keep properly operating, therefore not worth the hassle. it must be true.
3)some people wrote that the marantz 10b tuna is outperformed by many other tunas, even when the 10b *is* properly operating. even by marantz's own solid state 20b. it must be true.
reality is, i can't believe everything on that site even if i *wanted* to - it's too... *BALANCED*! ;~) it is fair, & it looks at issues from every angle. something that cannot, obviously, be said about all its readers.
ymmv,
doug s. |
ferrari,
i agree that the state of present commercial fm radio is pretty dismal. but all it takes, (for me anyways), is one or two decent public radio stations that broadcast a quality signal & play music i like, to make it all worthwhile for me. most of my "sweet-spot" listening is actually done w/fm playing.
re: xm, i have found it to be completely unlistenable, even for 30 seconds, in the "sweet-spot". it is barely tolerable, even as background music. its shrill, compressed, etched signal invariably gives me a headache after a while. i convinced a good friend who has it to try a tubed buffer stage between his xm receiver & his preamp. this does help a little, making it slightly less irritable as background music. but it is still completely unlistenable as a serious music source. so, i don't care *how* good the programming is. if i can't listen to it, it's completely worthless to me.
ymmv,
doug s. |
strapper, i hope the md109 is a significant step up from the md108, which is handily beaten by a slew of older vintage tunas, costing *way* less - like $500 or less. (as is the sequerra, according to many folks that have actualy compared them to good vintage tunas.) personally, from my experience w/lesser m-d's, & from my experience w/several accuphase tunas, if i had the $$$, i would be spending it on the new accuphase t1000. still way-spendy, but ~half the price of the md109. i know i wouldn't trade my accuphase t100 for an md108, that's for sure! well, mebbe i would, if part of the deal was that i could immediately re-sell it! :>) the write-ups i have read about the latest accuphase t1000 have me drooling - sonics way better than *anything* before it, even the exalted sansut tu-x1, kenwood l-02t, etc. and that's even *before* you use its digital out into an outboard dac - then it gets even *better*. i may have to sell a bunch of my vintage tunas & get one! :>)
ferrari, i feel your pain, re: crap fm - there are only two or three stations in my area that make fm listening worthwhile for me. but, (and this is not meant in a derogatory way at all), i really question your system's resolution or your hearing, if you can actually sit in the sweet spot & listen to xm. while i haven't heard the latest polk xm tuna, several folks who have listened to it have told me that, while it's marginally better than older xm tunas, it is still only useful for background music, not serious listening, even if you use its digital out to an outboard dac. but, hey - it works for you, that's what's important, eh? :>)
ymmv,
doug s. |
hi sutts,
the accuphase t101 is a fantastic tuna, imo. as is the t100. these are both near as good as it gets, especially if you're looking for "full bodied". they may not be the last word in detail, but they are close, imo. another to check out if you're wanting full bodied is the sansui tu9900. again, not the last word in detail but still close. all these will respond well to mods, tho i only owned stock iterations.
my all-around fave is still my modded hk citation 18. it was good enough that i was able to part with a modded accuphase t109. not sure what i will think when i receive my modded sansui tu-x1. ;~)
from what folks who have listened to one have said, the new accuphase t1000 is the one to get, but it won't help you if you're looking to stay under $1k. :>)
for me, at <$1k, i would look for a hk 18, a mitsubishi da-f20, or an aiwa au9700t & get 'em modded, if you're wanting to improve on your t101. but, the results will not be mind-blowing - the t101 is a damned nice tuna, imo. and you're right, i would awoid the tandberg 3001a - extremely overpriced, imo - nice sonics & reception, but you can do better for less. and, quite unreliable & difficult to service. i owned two of 'em & was happy to sell 'em both.
macro, i have not heard a kt917, but the folk at the fmtunerinfo.com site think pretty highly of it. it did fairly well in their shootouts, tho many less expensive tunas did better. (and some more expensive ones dint do as well.) i have owned an immaculate kenwood kt9900 (bronze kt8300) & was extremely underwhelmed - excellent reception, so-so sonics. that, & a refurb'd mac mr77 were the only two tunas i have sampled over the past several years that i wouldn't be happy with, sonically. (and most mac tuna aficionados will tell you that the 77 *and* the 74 are better sounding than the more well-known 78.) but these analog kenwoods' sonics *do* respond phenomenally to mods. i owned a modded kt7550 (bronze-faced kt7500) that sounded *superb*. the fmtunerinfo.com site has quite a bit of info on the 917 as well as a lot of other kenwood tunas - kenwood seems to have made about as many tunas as all the other mfr's combined.
ymmv,
doug s. |
jaguar, i suggest you try a marantz 20 or 20b; most tuna aficionados say it's better than the 10b, that the 20/20b is marantz's best. (i own a completely refurb'd 19 receiver, which has the 20b tuna inside it, & it *is* an excellent sounding tuna.) based upon my experience w/the lower-level m-d tunas, & upon the comments of others re: the md-108, i would recommend not bothering w/the ~$9k md109. i know you can exceed the sonic performance of the md108 with literally dozens of $200-$1k vintage tunas. also, i had an accuphase t109 modded by joseph chow. while certainly excellent, it is not worth the money, imo, & i dint miss it when i sold it. i have a coupla others that are as good, if slightly different in presentation. now, the accuphase t1000 is one i would like to try - from reports of others, it is head & shoulders above anything they have ever heard, including the big guns like the kenwood l-02t, sansui tu-x1, etc...
joey, i have never heard a kremlin in my own rig, mebbe some day. :>)
butch, i must heartily disagree w/your assessment of the mac tunas. easily the most over-hyped, underperforming tunas around, imo. well, at least as much as the m-d tunas! ;~)
most tuna addicts will tell you the absolute best sounding s/s mac tunas are the mr74 & the mr77. even richard modafferi will tell you that a properly set up 77 is better sonically than even the modafferi-modded 78. well, i owned a refurb'd/aligned mr77 & it was one of only two tunas i have auditioned in my rig over the past several years that i would not be happy listening to as my only tuna. (the other was a stock mint kenwood kt8300.) and, i have owned ~80 tunas.
while i have never heard the mr85, i trust most other comments about them, from those who have heard it, which are a bit different than yours. i also trust ron cornelius, mcintoshs present main product mgr, who readily admits that the current mr85 doesn't compare to the older mac tuna offerings. a search for "mr85" on the yahoo fmtuner forum comes up w/47 posts, for warying comments about this & other mac tunas.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/msearch?query=mr85&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
and, if you think i am a mac basher, well, all i can say is that i really *do* like my stephen sank modded mr65b, tho it's still not my best sounding tuna. :>)
ymmv,
doug s. |
