The Arm/Cartridge Matching Myth

Dear friends: We have to be extremely stupid to share information that in this same thread some one explained in a wide way why no one can took it seriously but as I said we are so stupid to.......! ! ! ?


R.

@lewm  : """  is that we often don’t have correct data for our particular sample of cartridge or tonearm.. """

so then why bother about the myth or the existence of that ideal resonance frequency range, now I got it. Thank's.

R.

@noromance  : a mistake, must say: " that myth exist ...""

@syntax : If you got it 15 years ago then your other post makes no common sense at least if you think that the important issue is what is rigth and not what we like.


lewm said : " " The vinylista is free to try anything. "" and that is not the main subject here. Btw, in my case I’m not angry in reality I’m laughing because that big joke makes me laugh.

@noromance with all respect: are you kidding me with You tube? if yes then now I understand your other post because you are saying in an indirect way that that myth does not exist and you like the OP is trying to prove through that big joke name it YT: go figure, LOL ! ! ???

R.

Dear @mijostyn : Not only that. Additional has not common sense.

Btw, common sense is main part of any science.  Einstein, Newton, Galileo and the like had high levels of common sense.

I think that after six years the myth proposal is today inside the stupidity land.

R.

Dear @halcro  : With all respect you have a hard head because you read but not really READ becauise every time you post show that you don't understand nothing of all what all those gentlemans posted years ago in this and other forums and that I posted to you and tell you at least twice time in this thread that you READ IT VERY CAREFULLY and your posts show that you did not or understand nothing about.

In the other side you was who post this thread and in your OP you ( that are asking for SCIENCE. ) don't show not only true evidence on the main subject ( MYTH. ) where proves what you are supporting  and no one can read there that SCIENCE when you are tghe first person that must prove what you are supporting ( MYTH. ) in your OP.

No one has to prove you that you are wrong ( even that a lot of gentlemans here already PROVED. ) instead you that are the proposer is the one and first one that need with SCIENCE to prove that is a MYTH and please don't repeat again that joke ( as a prove. ) " hear my cartridges " that of SCIENCE has nothing .

All those true opinions I posted for you read it carefully have a lot lot more SCIENCE that your " hear my cartridges " or all what you are posted here trying to said you are rigth.

Do you want that I use the rigth word to name your beahavior on that critical an important  subject?, because no matters what you are totally wrong till you PROVE with SCIENCE that you are rigth.

Please don't ask to @atmasphere  that he use that science to do it, it is not his responsability. IT IS YOU WHO HAS THE MAIN RESPONSABILITY TO DO IT WAS YOU WHO STARTED THE THREAD WITH OUT ANY PROVE, so and if you can't do it ( that I know for sure you can't and not only: no one can't to prove that exist that myth. No one. ) at least try to post something that stop to shows that you  have a serious problem in your brain supporting your negative attitude.

Please prove that exist that MYTH as you said it SIX YEARS AGO and that even all those years today you still support it with no evidence that can prove your words or that you learned " something " about.

R.

@geoffkait  : That's not the main subject of this thread. Can you share " something " different to what other gentlemans already posted supporting that the myth is not a myth or if you think it's a myth then post according what you support?

I said that because as lewm you opened a new " window " here. Yes, you are free to post what you want it. This is a free world.

Thank's in advance,
R.

Dear @atmasphere  : I forgot I have that link, thank's to share it because it's acontundent additional evidence that that " myth " isnot amyth at all but something real and something we all have to take care about.

But six years ago you posted supporting the importance of cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency subject.

@mijostyn,agree with you.

R.

Dear @halcro : First don’t try to avoid the inevitable, you just can’t do it.
Every one that read what others gentlemans/audiophiles with very high knowledge levels opinions with facts/evidence that I posted understand with out doubt what you after more than 6 years don’t do it. I said and now your posts confirm it: you have a personal big big problem.


""" until he has the last word. """ really? because my post was not about what I say on the subject but what other gentlemans posted in this thread and other forums. As I said please don’t try to avoid the inevitable.

"" Ortofon where there is not a single mention of the affect on the SOUND from the cartridge.
It is all about trackability of WARPED records """


"" also confirm that the issue is purely TRACKABILITY.......no claims regarding the affects on SOUND. ""


Please ask you: why cartridge designers put so much effort in the tracking cartridge abilities through the adecuated compliance/suspension/effective stylus ti´mass/ stylus shape, cantilever material, etc, etc.?

The differences in SOUND between a cartridge with 5cu ( everything the same. ) and other same design cartridge with 14cu is night and day because tracking ability is what permit to the stilus tip tracking in a way better form following the LP surface recorded grooves modulations. A cartridge with low compliance can’t give us all the information that are recorded in the grooves modulations in the same way that a higher compliance same model.
TRACKING ABILITIES MAKES AUDIBLE DIFFERENCES IN THE SOUND.

That you can’t hear it is another matters and a problem you have and that does not affects to any one else.

In the other side all LP are warped and the " outer platter ring " can’t fix it because that device helps for the macro warps but the micro ones no one can’t do  nothing about and we have to think that the stylus tip works at MICRO levels, so that micro warps changes the SOUND and tracking abilities in the cartridge ( along other issues. ) makes a difference. Additional to that is the off-center and feedback where boths effects works to " disturb " that cartridge/arm resonance frequency and directly affects/change the SOUND we perceive.



""" There is little SCIENCE behind it.....
It hasn’t been tested, studied, verified, quantified nor analysed. """


That you can’t understand it only say that all the ones that posted here are rigth and certainly even that you deny it: are wrong for your misunderstood. Tha’s all.


But you posted as part of your false arguments a non-scientific excercise:

""" is my Thread ’Hear My Cartridges """

sorry but that’s a good joke nothing more.


Again, re-read carefully the evidence on those very good posts because all those are the ones that already put the " last word " in the myth subject that’s as @mijostyn said: " this is not one of them.

As he said: """ you are intentionally misleading people ."""

Again, sorry but in this regards/myth/issue , for say the least, you are wrong with your terrible misunderstood.

I’m not saying it, all those posts by those gentlemans already said it. The last word came from all of them, like it or not.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Maybe a rookie can’t understand nothing about the main subject but you have a lot of years in audio and started this thread 6 years ago. What did you learn in those years? because your last two posts confirm that you learned nothing about. I’m not saying that but your self posts.

Dear @halcro : I know that if you are or can’t be aware/detect something then and no matter what your belive is that that " thing " tha’s happening just does not exist for you.

For several years now and in different threads I already told you that no matters what your room/system impedes ( I don’t want to repeat my in the past wide explanations/facts about. ) that you can be aware not only of this critical " myth " ( as you name it. ) but many other important audio subjects.

Please do it a favor ( for the very first time in your life. ) and read very carefully all the different evidences/facts that several gentlemans ( some of them with better knowledge levels that you or me. ) posted in this thread and in others about the issue:


https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency/


""

compliance is a measure of how springy the suspension is...
so a high compliance cartridge has a fairly soft suspension...ie the suspension is easily compressed, it is highly complaint
... if you stick a high compliance cartridge on to a high mass arm..it will generally work...but tracking anything other than a perfectly flat record will cause undamped vibrations in the arm because the suspension is too soft to recover after a warp...or while tracking heavily modulated grooves of high amplitude waves
those vibrations wil affect the stylus’ ability to trace the record groove properly..and unwanted resonances may intrude upon the audible frequencies caused by this mis match...
think of a heavy car on soft suspension springs...when it goes over a bump..it wobbles for a long period of time before it comes to rest...

the opposite applies for a low complaince cartridge and a low mass arm... the low compliance of the cantilver’s suspension (e.g. fairly rigid, does not deflect much under a light mass) added to a low mass arm.(eg less inertia..so requires less force to move it) will lead to mistracking and in some cases an inability to correctly follow a record that is anything other than perfectly flat... also the stylus will struggle to follow the groove without moving the whole arm as well on large modulations in the record...ie bass notes..
same car analogy... light car on stiff springs...meets bump... the car will spend most of its time off the ground when it hits a bump at speed...and the tyres will have trouble following the up and downs of the roads surface because there is not enough mass acting on the stiff suspension ..

its basically a juggling act and you can get away with fairly extreme combinations but ideally you want to settle for a decent mechanical match between the mass of your arm..and how soft or stiff the suspension in your cartridge is...

the effective mass is the mass that the cartridge ’see’s at the end of the tonearm... some arms are heavier in ’mass’ but concentrate that mass near the pivot so the end of the tonearm may have a lower effective mass acting upon the stylus.... think of tapered tonearms...where the mass increases towards the pivot...or arms with heavy bearing assemblies that use a thin tonearm tube...

the balance you aim for basically..is to keep the stylus moving as independently from the arm as possible..without causing any vibration that will feed into the arm and back into the cartridge...ie wobbling... on the other side...you want the stylus to follow the groove as closely as possible without being disturbed (vibrated unecessarily)by warps in the record or losing contact with the groove walls.. ""





""" The thing that can take care of rather large mismatches is tonearm damping. Damping the tonearm´s movements is a key in getting better low frequency stability. ""




dlaloum:


"" any sprung system will have a resonance point at which it moves most easily - energy will tend to get channeled into that frequency resulting in a peak in amplitude.

The mass/springing system of the tonearm, where the only spring is the suspension of the cartridge works in the same way.

Even when the resonant frequency is at the "ideal" frequency of 10Hz, what happens is anything near that frequency will tend to excite the sprung system, and magnify those frequencies.

Test records have tracks of low frequency sweeps - basically a tone at a set level with gradually dropping or increasing frequency usually starting at 3 or 5 Hz and rising to 20Hz or 25Hz.

If you record this track and plot the amplitude to frequency, you will note that it does not reflect a line (as it theoretically should) but shows a marked peak at the resonant frequency. Depending on the arm/cartridge this peak can be anywhere from 2-3db (ok) up to 8db+ (bad).

The peak is not a narrow one, and usually influences frequencies on either side of the maximum point to a lesser extent.

As the RF (resonant frequency) rises it can start to impact on the audible low frequency response of the system - a substantial boost in amplitude at 15Hz as an example can cause huge subwoofer/woofer pumping, sucking up amplifier current, causing intermodulation of the bass frequencies, and generally affecting the sound as a result. (amps being under pressure using up all its grunt moving the woofers ends up losing its sweetness in the high end...) This is one of the reasons golden age phono centric amps often have a subsonic filter!

As the RF drops it starts to approach the frequencies generated by things like footfalls, and other vibrations external to the TT.

If you watch an arm/cartridge at its resonant frequency it clearly starts to "wobble" - there is substantial physical movement.. as it rises the needle will get pulled slightly back, as it drops it will get pushed slightly forward, a form of wow that is seldom considered, but does affect all frequencies reproduced.

Additionally the movement generates vibrations in the entire system which in turn intermodulate with the signal, generating other spurious "noise" (Intermodulation Distortion.).

Also when the RF is triggered, the cartridge movement can cause mistracking - with all of its associated problems, including increased wear and tear on record and stylus!

A well tuned arm/cartridge have the RF positioned where it does the least harm - by keeping it away from footfall/external vibration frequencies, and the resonant frequencies of the TT suspension (usually around 5Hz), keeping it away from the audio range (15Hz+) and if possible keeping its amplitude as small as possible.

Regardless of the final RF, the resonance remains an undesirable aspect of TT technology.

There is a way to control it, it is called damping. Damping can 1) reduce the amplitude of the RF, and 2) slightly shift the peak frequency.
The most common damping is fluid damping using a paddle system in an oil bath attached to the arm - it provides a slight resistance in a frequency sensitive way - the end result can be very effective. (the damping can be internal within the tonearm pivot column, external, it can be done with fluid or electro magnetic servo means...)

As an example, my JVC turntable has a damped arm - running a TK9e cartridge, I measured the resonant frequency at 5.9Hz - this being with the damping disabled.
Enabling the damping "widened" the peak somewhat - going from 5.8Hz to 6.5Hz, but dropped its peak from +4db down to +1db.
The stylus compliance is 31cu, the arm mass calculated out to 23.8g (including cartridge and fixings) - so high mass tonearm with high compliance cartridge - resulting in low RF (much too low).

With damping disabled - the mistracking was relatively obvious - and the system was very very sensitive to anyone walking around the house.
With damping enabled - the mistracking disappeared, and footfall sensitivity although still there, became much much reduced.

This is clearly NOT an ideal setup - I can make it useable with damping - but it will be better if I can lighten the mass by 4g or 5g with a lighter headshell.
And then I can still damp the resulting higher RF....

Some test records have an interesting track that can be used to identify the RF they run the low frequency sweep tone, at the same time as a steady audible tone...

When the arm hits the resonant frequency you clearly hear the tone "warble" - a result of the arm/cartridge movement.

A lesser and more subtle version of this happens when you play a record, and the arm is excited at its RF.

I strongly recommend damped tonearms regardless of the RF... ""





tonywin:


""" Tracking force does not affect the natural frequency of the cartridge/tonearm system- unless you have so much tracking force that the cartridge suspension is bottomed out. You’ll know that is the case if you see a thin ribbon of vinyl curling up behind the needle while playing a record.
Effective Mass is a shortcut for calculating the tonearm/cartridge system natural frequency. Effective mass is really the inertia of the tonearm expressed in grams. That’s because the tonearm is resting on a fulcrum (pivot). The tonearm and counterweight weigh much more than just a few grams. Additionally, the effective mass can vary depending on the position of the counterweight. So a lower mass cartridge will lower the effective mass of the tonearm since the counter weight will be closer to the pivot. I guess the tonearm manufactures provide us with a nominal value. Don’t forget to add the mass of the cartridge, not just the spring rate to the natural frequency calculation.
The only magic about 10Hz +/-2 Hz is that this is the "quiet" area. Below 8 Hz is the range of record warps and footfalls. Above 16 Hz is getting into the range of the music. The tonearm/cartridge system is still responding at 10Hz. Any energy input will make it respond at that frequency. The key is not to have input at 10Hz. This is so the inherent damping of the stylus suspension and any tonearm pivot bearing friction can be effective at keeping the tonearm/cartridge calm. That small amount of damping keeps things under control. If the tonearm system has a response at say 3-5Hz then the resonance- infinite energy out will overwhelm the damping properties and the tonearm will be greatly excited when rising over a record warp. You could certainly not have a problem with a tonearm system response of 5Hz as long as the records are perfectly flat, hole dead center and the turntable well isolated from footfalls.
I had a cartridge/tonearm system at 16 Hz once. It sounded ok but when I looked closely, the stylus was constanltly moving up and down. I rectified the problem by adding a 4 gram mass to the headshell. That dropped the natural frequency to about 10Hz. Everything was steady then.
The danger is that being outside the quiet zone (10Hz +/-) can result in excessive wear or even damage to your cartridge and records- even if it sounds fine. """




fleib:

"" Even though there’s normally no musical content below 20Hz, there is a variety of noise caused by friction, and the mechanical reality of tracking.
What’s the amplitude peak of undamped low frequency resonance? What exactly is it that’s resonating, your cantilever perhaps? Ever hear of intermodulation distortion?

This is all well documented for decades now. Imperfect equipment and set-up can allow acoustic and mechanical feedback to wreck havoc that is absent with digital.

If low frequency resonance is near the audio band, say 18Hz, then 2nd harmonic intermodulation is 36Hz.
This is from The Audio Dictionary:
http://books.google.com/books?id=L38MrvScG3gC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=low+frequency+resonant... """



timeltel:

""" From 35/40 years back, lots of informative data:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-03-04-7501b.pdf

If you’re interested in credentials, Google Lee Phoenix.

Starting on pg. 9, the practical Peter Prichard; "We really don’t know quite what we’re doing in this industry":
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-04-08-7605b.pdf

Sources of resonance excitation: "The vibration input to the pickup (both signal and warp) is represented by the constant current generator exciting the circuit. The motion of the stylus assembly is modeled by the current in the CR branch, which shows that the circuit is a high-pass filter, with a resonant peak at the corner frequency."
http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4072#PhonoArmDamping ""




atmasphere:


""" Henry, Its more than being about warped records, if you read inbetween the lines of Kirkus’s post above- if the effective mass is incorrect, you can actually have the stylus jump out of the groove of a perfectly flat, concentric LP.

An excellent example is a Grado on a Graham 2.2- does the well-known ’Grado dance’ shortly before exiting stage left (IOW, jumps out of the groove).

The other issue is you won’t be able to get the cartridge to track complex material correctly. So its a big deal and not just about warp. ""




kirkus:


""

This Resonant Frequency has ZERO affect on the sound quality of a particular tonearm/cartridge combination and I have proved it hundreds of times with a dozen different arms and over 40 cartridges.

Hi Halcro . . . I think the main conceptual problem here is that the resonant frequency is only one parameter that’s descriptive of the tonearm/cartridge resonance envelope. Keep in mind that the tonearm/cartridge combination is a mechanical high-pass filter, and if there is a resonant peak . . . mathematically it must be a multi-pole system. This means that affecting any element changes not only the resonant frequency, but the width and height of the peak (Q), the transition-band slope, and the amount and periodicity of any pass-band ripple.

The difference between 8 and 12 Hz really is very little in the frequency domain - at 1/3-octave it’s the same as two adjacent bands on a 31-band EQ. And while the tonearm/cartridge system is indeed multi-order, its filter slope isn’t anywhere near steep enough to make much difference in LF response or warp-immunity simply with a change of frequency. Rather, the effect of raising the tonearm mass for a given cartridge usually increases the Q of the filter in addition to lowering the resonant frequency; that is, the resonant peak becomes higher and narrower.

The trade-offs of raising the system Q are the same as for any electrical filter: the "benefits" are that the transition-band (immediately below the resonant frequency) becomes sharper and more selective, and the pass-band (area above the resonant frequency) becomes overall "flatter". The "drawbacks" are that the system becomes dramatically more sensitive to energy imparted at the resonant frequency, the pass-band ripple increases, and increased ringing in the time-domain (impulse) response.

Pragmatically, the main issue will be the extent to which your turntable and environment conduct energy into the tonearm/cartridge system, and at what frequencies. If you’re using non-suspended turntables, on sturdy furniture, in a concrete building, then you’re probably going to have fewer issues with subsonic resonances, but your system will be more prone to acoustic energy conducted back into the tonearm . . . and a heavier, more rigid tonearm definitely helps to control and dampen this.

But for suspended turntables, springy wooden building structures, heavy support furniture sitting on carpet etc. etc. . . . indeterminately increasing the Q of the tonearm/cartridge system is playing with fire. Each of these additional spring/mass systems can potentially combine to create a condition where the system is extremely sensitive to subsonic and low-bass energy. Many view this as a reason to universally condemn suspended turntables . . . but it’s simply a different type of energy to which the system is susceptible, and the trade-off for better immunity to conducted energy within the audio range.

But regardless of the type of turntable design, domicile construction, or support furniture . . . I seem to see fairly regular inquiries on these fora for help to solve the issue of woofer-pumping while playing records. Much of the time the owner has already followed this sort of advice . . .

The best match for ANY cartridge ever made….is simply the very best tonearm you can afford…whatever its Effective Mass

Given that the prime mechanism determining susceptibility to this phenomenon is the tonearm/cartridge resonance envelope . . . the notion that this issue could be avoided simply by spending more money on a "better" tonearm seems a bit unreasonable to me. It’s simply far more effective to change to a lower-compliance cartridge, thereby creating a system with a lower-Q resonance envelope at a slightly higher frequency. """


If after you read it all those excellent information you still think that because yo just can’t be aware of that issue does not exist and is only a " myth " then you have a big big personal problem.

Btw, @mijostyn is rigth.

Think for a moment how could be that several knowledge gentlemans/audiophiles are wrong and only you are rigth? ? ! ! How????? What did you learn all those years from the day started this thread? ? What? ? 


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @noromance  : """  a gentleman, fellow enthusiast, and does not deserve some of these pretty abrasive posts..."""

It could be a gentleman but that's not the main subject it's nothing personal against or in favor of his " person " in the thread and IMHO those " abrasive " post he already wining by a wide margin and I agree with those posts for say the least.

If you agree with his position just say it: that that resonance frequency is a myth. 
Why don't you do that?

R.

Dear @syntax  : If it's true almost all what you said but nothing of that really matters if the tonearm is not well damped.

A tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency out of the ideal frequency range it's a lot more prone to develops resonances/distortions and the like if it's non well damped than a well damped tonearm design.

Now, damped or not all the issues in the cartridge/resonance land exist no matters what and exist a lot of evidence all over the net but in this thread many links with that evidence/facts.

In the other side, all audiophiles like the sound and distortions that are accustom too even if what some of them like to listen is way wrong.

It's important separate subjectivity from objectivity and when we make any kind of audio devices evaluations the first premise to do it is an UNBIASED attitude that's not easy to achieve it.

From some time now ( years ago. ) I had what I consider the best MUSIC/sound experiences of all my audio life that through those experiences I learned what to look for to listen in any audio system evaluations.
That experiences were and are listening live MUSIC seated at near field position where is the only way ( other that if you are an instrument player. ) to learn how MUSIC ( each instrument performs, which is its kind/level o sound level and differences in between. ).
If you do that you will know that MUSIC ( live Music. ) is everything you want but: smooth, warm, , calm and the like. Instead live MUSIC has its natural agresiveness, brithness, explosivity, heavy emotional, great dynamics and very fast transients, time decay is spot on, immediacy that you can touch it and with some instruments listening at live SPL you can't do it for more than a few minutes, example, horns or even piano or a first violin. MUSIC has the POWER that we can't mimic at home but things are that the recording microphones are " seated " at very near field positions of the source. So I always try though my room system to do everything that puts me nearer to the recording to what those mics pic-up.

In the other side the analog is an arcaic alternative and full of imperfections and the advances with TT, tonearms or cartridges gone and goes really really slow and no matters what unfortunatelly can't cope with those imperfections. There is no way to that resonance frequency disappears, if we can't listen its effects that's another matters and not the main subject here.

Btw, for me any cartridge must performs well with any tonearm the problem is that if it's true that cartridge are " universal " are the tonearms the ones that are not for all cartridges and not the other way around.

We have to remnember too that phonolinepreamp are not perfect and that the relation ship between tonearm/cartridge is mechanical full of several issues that affects the quality level of what is in the recording. 
You can't only close your eyes to that resonance frequency tonearm/cartridge just because you like what you are listening even that you can be out of the ideal frequency range. No, what we like and what is rigth is not exactly the same in any room/audio system.

And here we are discussing what is wrong not what we like. Got it?


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Btw, the gentleman in your link use an accelerometer and a ADC/DAC not a real room/system with phonolinepreamp and the like and using real conditions about SPL for the tests.

R.

Dear @halcro : In good shape because all my posts were trying to help you and I knows that the posts in the past and latests ones coming from different gentlemans have the " mission " to help you and nothing more than that.

Unfortunatelly you showed and still shows that you need no help and that you are rigth and asking for " science " and your science is You tube: this make sense not for me but for any one but you.

Here the people say: " the woerst bling person is the one that does not wants to see ".

It’s unfortunated for you that you follow with the same attitude from six years now in something extremely easy. It’s not rocket science and certainly it’s not big deal for nay one but you.}

Unfortunastely too each time you post ( like the latest one ) you only go deeper in that black hole with out any possibility for see the " ligth ".

In your last link exist two importants things:

""" So far, we’re only studying the motion that is excited by the artificial test signals. What would happen when we expose our combinations to actual real life records? """

and the other is that that gentleman just does not know the real compliance of the 103 cartridge that certainly is not 5cu as he stated, at least not to use that number for a comparison tests:

He needs read this: " *Denon publishes their dynamic compliance specifications relative to 100Hz . The actual compliance at 10Hz will be higher. "

Additional he choosed an analog rig just " terrible ": the TT is the MS 1500 where the platter ring like a bell, has no suspension and all the TT resonates in heavy way, the tonearm is mounted in the MS arm board and the arm board in the TT is hold in one of the TT foots where any kind of resonance pass through ! !
But things does not stop there: he choosed to use a ceramic headshell that is terrible for say the least, ceramic is the worst material for a headshell due to his very high developed resonances/distortions and you know very well this ceramic headshell issue.



In the other side here more information on your false myth:



"""" """ Why is it so important for a few Posters to continually, repetitively and monotonously gnaw and harp, howl and vent, rail......’ """

exactly in the same time that you try to prove the myth with your " science " name it: You Tube.



""" change their viewpoints.....
Why do they insist on trying to change mine? """



no one try to change your mind, tha’s up to you.




I can see in those videos that you use a record clamp. I’m " terrified "
to ask you an additional the use of a clamp is obvious even for a rookie.

.

This from no Agon forum:


""

Whether the correct term is damping or dampening in mass/spring systems complying with Hooke’s law (remember from school physics F=-kx) to describe reducing the system Q (boinginess) probably depends on where you learned to speak English. When talking about loudspeaker panels, pickup arm fundamental resonance or vehicle suspensions, the different spellings either go unnoticed or infuriate pedants.

More importantly than how the words sound is how the product affects the sound.

There have been attempts to control the movement of pick up arms since the early days of microgroove LPs. In a nutshell, slow arm movements are desirable to ride warps and tolerate spindle eccentricity while permitting the arm to be dragged towards the centre of the record by the stylus following the relentless inward spiral.
Very quick arm movements, excited by surface ripples or vibrational energy caused by the cartridge’s imperfect (inevitably) suspension system, are very undesirable as the cartridge will also convert these non linear, non musical, movements to electrical signals as though they were music; which they are not. We call this "distortion" - it is a bad thing.

The mass of the arm bouncing on the stylus cantilever suspension causes it to resonate as a system, either at around 12Hz or 15Hz depending which of the two dominant theories is preferred by the selector of the arm/cart combo under consideration. More unstable arm/cart systems can flop around down below 10Hz when folk stick their favourite hig compliance cartridge in a arm. This results in almost constant oscillation that leads to pitch instability similar to that of the dreadful compact cassette. It also results in comb filtered boomy, poorly controlled, bass. Equally, ultra low compliance moving coil cartridges mounted on lightweight tone-arms can resonate above 20Hz causing problems well into the audible band above 20Hz. The consequences of either condition include overworking amplifiers and out of gap voicecoils in reflex speakers. Getting arm cartridge matching right is absolutely fundamental to competent vinyl replay.

Even when the arm cartridge resonance is in the right ball park, some degree of resonance control has long been considered desirable especially in the bass region. Ideally applied at the cartridge end, as close as possible to the cantilever pivot, attempts using damping brushes mounted on stylus assemblies were tried in the 70s by cartridge manufacturers. Then the (Townshend/Cranfield) turntable went further with a radial damping fluid trough arranged for immersion of a paddle mounted on the headshell. """

You posted in this thread:

""" and it has made me realise how wrong I am about the importance (or lack thereof) of the Arm/Cartridge Resonance
I’m really kcking my self.......I completely ignored its possible relationship to the Arm/Cartridge Resonance """

Please read what you posted there:

"" I completely ignored its ...relationship to the arm/cartridge resonance. ""

Ignorance, you said it not me ( ignorance by you own words. ). You followed:


This is why I suspect, changing cartridges or headshells or adding mass or damping to the tonearm often ‘solve’ the problem
You are simply shifting your resonant frequency ‘out’ of the feedback harmonics """

This post from you confirm with out doubt what @mijostyn posted in reference that you are " deaf ":

""" The most startling aspect of these experiences...has been the elevation in sound quality when using cartridges in arms that are decidedly a ’bad match’ according to the theoretical Arm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency equation....
With the very high-mass FR-66s tonearms.....virtually ALL the high-compliance MM cartridges I mount on them, transcend their often humble status to become magical devices emitting radiance, tranquility and bliss unheard from them in lesser arms....😘
I’m not talking degrees of betterment here.....I’m talking paradigm shifts of exaltation...👋🎼🎵🎶 """

Several times in the past I posted ( and proved with facts. ) that your system is full of " names " of manufacturers but with a room/system extremely deficiente set-up that impedes that you be aware of almost none kind of distortions and the developed harmonics of those ( every kind ) distortions. Today things on how your room/system " speaks " does not changed, it’s a bad/deficient set-up.

Now, post after post you confirm that even that you are not aware ( for multiple reasons. ) you like all those heavy and full distortions in your room/system, it’s what you like no matters what.

Is totally evident your self position about and that’s why your You tube big joke. Fine with me.

You posted

""" It provoked a ’thought exercise’ which leads me to a ’theory’ as yet unsupported by scientific evidence.
I predict that any cartridge will have the same Frequency Response Plot Graph regardless of the Arm/Cartridge Resonance it ’sees’....."""

and said that your " theory " as yet UNSUPPORTED by scientific evidence.

Who understand you? because you already " won " a prize nobel by your scientific evidence name it: You Tube ! ! ! I think that if Newton or Einstein been with us both will give you a " reverence " as the ultimate studies in the audio world ever made..

I think that that coffin rigth now stays near the center nucleo of earth. Good for you and every one because sooner or latter the coffin will be totally burn in.

Again I know that you think not only that you are rigth all all the other gentlemans including me are wrong and that you do not need help from Agoners.

Well at least try to help by your self because the ignorance that you accepted by your post in this thread gives the opportunity to learn.

Not only you can learn on what we ignore some audio subjects all of us is what we do when we ignore something and that learning always enrich our knowledge levels. No one knows everything about every audio subject, no one. We all have ignorance holes not only you that accept it by your self in that post.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@atmasphere  please stop that report because the post must be here for people can learn about. 

Several posts including yours are very good lessons for any agoner, so we need stay the thread for all the newcomers.

R.

Dear @halcro : There is no " best friends " only honest discussions trying to learn every time.

Btw, my " disastrous room/systems set up " sounds just sublime nothing that you can even imagine or dream and certainly nothing that you can achieve today and never in your audio life. Period.

Now and coming back with the Myth main tread subject:

halcro, six years ago when you posted this thread and after post it your foots were inside a coffin with no return no matter what.

In those times several gentlemans proved with facts that your thread statement was totally false. You only post and never gave any true evidence that proved the existence of your Myth that only exist in your brain.

@timeltel in those times was one of those gentlemans and he as always was spot on as today is with his post. Welcome timeltel people miss you in this forums.

Through his post @dover puts an additional nail to your coffin.

Rigth now you are bury so deep in the earth that it’s imposible to stop your free fall down there.

With your latests posts you are not only adding more nails to the coffin but you are accelerating that free fall.

Please do it a favor and stop your free fall because each time you post about don’t put another nail because in the coffin there is no more surface for an additional nail but you just go deeper and deeper.

Hear my cartridges is the big joke you imagine as are all those you tube videos: and you think  and want that through a joke you can prove you are rigth: go figure ! !  

R.

Dear @geoffkait  : Sorry for that post, I was thinking only in the myth.

Yes, you are rigth.

R.