Only 15 coatings of oil instead of 50-60!
Chris, did you get a big discount? Oil prices being what they are and all. |
I think Raul should buy one of each and set up a salon! Then we can use them to compare his 18 arms and 47 cartridges. ;-)
Truly, it's as Raul said. These are all fine tables, each with its own plus points (many) and minus points (few). Obviously we like Teres, since we bought a 265 and then upgraded to a 320 thanks to CB's excellent trade-in policy. I'm not ashamed to say the visual aesthetics of cocobolo played a part in our decision.
Our sonic priorities are similar to what Dan_Ed described. This is why we chose an unsuspended, high mass design. I have a hard time believing that a plinth that's free to move would provide full dynamics and transient speed. Try putting sorbothane or roller-anythings beneath your sub-woofers or main speakers and see what happens to the sound.
Cheers to all and a Happy 2006!
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... some records need different clamping pressure than others. I'm not sure how that translates to the weight. I've never tried a weight either, for exactly this reason. It's only Rudolf Bruil's ring that is a problem, due to its unusually large diameter. Sound Engineering should be able to make a TriPlanar-compatible ring. There's also an Audiophile Club of Athens (Greece) member that offered custom made rings. I'd have to google to find it, it's been a year or two since I looked at it. |
Teres has never shown at CES before. Don't know about Galibier or Redpoint. Richardmr, All Teres models got a huge PRaT upgrade in late-2005. Even better, this upgrade cost virtually NOTHING! In early September CB sent a few owners, including me, a new drive belt. Instead of the previous 1 mil x 1/2" mylar tape, the new belt is 2 mil x 1/2" mylar. The improvement this thicker, sturdier belt makes is phenomenal. Two years ago when my first Teres was new, I started a thread to report the improvement made by 1 mil x 1/2" mylar tape vs. silk thread. One Galibier/Redpoint owner (Salectric?) added that he got still better results with 2 mil tape. I should have tried some then but it slipped my mind until CB sent me one. Here is an excerpt from an email I sent CB on 9/12/05: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
The clear belt provides MUCH superior coupling of platter to motor. This is 100% good. (I'm ignoring motor vibration transmission, not really a big issue with Teres motors). Superior coupling forces the playback stylus to more accurately reproduce the path of the cutting stylus in the TIME dimension.
In our system amplitudes became greater across the board, dynamics got stronger, leading edges got quicker. Bass response in particular increased so much that many familiar records actually sound strange: frequency balance shifted so radically they literally sound like different (and much better) recordings. All this from a belt change.
Last night I played Acts 2 and 3 of Wagner's 'Gotterdammerung'. That's 7 sides, I couldn't stop myself. The music and the drama were compelling, terrifying, overwhelming, shocking and real - exactly how the death of the Gods should sound. All this from a belt change.
This morning I played Bach's Well Tempered Clavier performed by Ralph Kirkpatrick. These are the most delicate sounding LPs I know of. Kirkpatrick's 36"-wide clavichord was never more fully present, despite the necessity to play these records at very low levels. (A live clavichord is very quiet. Two people having a conversation will easily drown one out.) All this from a belt change.
Our preamp gain control is now set lower to achieve the same SPLs. We hear less tube rush, less vinyl surface noise and our preamp gain tubes aren't being pushed as hard. All this from a belt change.
Clarity, tunefulness and pitch accuracy are improved on nearly all records, sometimes dramatically so. I have one or two really torturous records that I've never been able to play cleanly to the end. (Operatic sopranos on inner grooves mostly.) If I told you everything I've tried it would take hours. The new belt solved 90% of the problem with the very toughest of these, and 100% of it on the others. It helped more than the TriPlanar vs. OL Silver, more than a 320 vs. 265, more than a ZYX UNIverse vs. a Shelter 901. All this from a belt change. Methinks FlyingRed's comparison from last Summer, which found the Teres lacking in PRaT, convinced CB to make a change that worked. I don't know if anyone's compared these tables since then, but I do know any comparison using the old belt is now quite outdated. |
Chris,
Thanks for the reality check. I quite agree with your assessment of the Urushi, as you know. I don't doubt that it had a huge (or soft, rather) impact on what FlyingRed heard.
Still, our belt comparisons were made using our 320/TriPlanar/UNIverse. The improvements we heard and still hear were anything but small. YMMV I suppose.
I was hoping you could find a source that's easier than cutting by hand. Oy! I'll poke around and see if I can find one. Sorry to be such a pest.
Doug |
Dan_Ed,
Tension with a mylar belt is certainly touchier than with a more elastic one, but with Audiopoints coupling discs beneath the three spikes on my motor it doesn't move by itself. I check belt tension once in a while with a finger, but it's typically stable for weeks on end.
Find something else to stress about! ;-) |
Dan_Ed,
We haven't received the new bearing yet, so my table is presently doing a live imitation of an exploded diagram. Fortunately, tables of this type have relatively few parts!
Waiting is hard, I feel your pain. Dutifully cleaning records we can't play doesn't quite satisfy. It does give me a chance to remove the cat hairs from all the fiddly bits on the TriPlanar. Those are hard to reach when it's mounted.
I've also borrowed the Stillpoints that support the 320 to test beneath other components. We normally use cryoed Symposium Rollerblocks with tungsten balls, courtesy of Cello. This gave me a chance to A/B.
Beneath the power amp I prefer the Stillpoints (more texture and inner detail). Paul prefers the Rollerblocks (more presence). Oy! It is rare for us to disagree on sonics for any length of time. So either he'll come to his senses ;-) or we'll conclude that in this application they are different, but only slightly so.
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Colin, We captured another one. Great! Which model Teres and Schroeder did you fling your hard-earned money at? (Don't worry, there's no wrong answer!) Nghiep, The bigger pulley diamter provides much more belt contacting surface area. I wonder why turntable manufacture did not making 4" or 6" pulleys so the pulleys have the same diameters as motor pod. Excellent point and excellent question. I presume there must be some reason. Anyone? |
Redpoint went to very thin, silicone rubber pads under their motor controller. FWIW, I once tried adding a thin (<.5mm) layer of a self-adhesive, non-slip material to the bottom of the coupling discs on which my motor spikes sit. I thought this might reduce the occasional (once every month or two) need to check belt tension and/or improve motor stability and thus dynamics. In fact, I got one of those unintended consequences. The very tiny amount of rocking this "squidgy" layer allowed caused a "THUMP" when the tape splice went 'round the motor capstan. This was transmitted back through the belt to the platter, where the cartridge picked it up and sent it to the speakers. I peeled it off. No more thumps. Solid coupling works best for me. I'm sure Twl and the folks at Audiopoints would laugh knowingly. |
I truly enjoyed my Linn sound, but I am now being drawn to a more neutral/open sound, ....
I love the big soundstage with slam as well. Xagwell, It sounds like you want it all! ;-) As between ZYX and Shelter, the ZYX lineup is more neutral and open. Neutrality and seamlessness are the first things everyone notices when they first hear one, and that impression does not fade with time. No colorations, no bloat, no artificial blooming of notes. The ZYX soundstage has more depth, width and perceivable dimensions. ZYX's also image better than Shelters. This is partly due to their more modern stylus profile and partly due to the excellent channel separation of the coil windings. OTOH, at comparable price points (901 vs. R100 Fuji, 90x vs. Airy 3) the Shelter cartridge will have more raw slam. The Shelter's leading edge transients will be more aggressive. Bass power goes to the Shelter, bass tunefulness and texture go to the ZYX. OTOOH, if you can afford a UNIverse then the contest is over. Shelter does not make a cartridge that comes anywhere close, in any sonic parameter. TriPlanar VII and SME V are both great arms. TriPlanar gives you the advantage of easy height adjustment, which many find critical with modern styli. SME gives you superb build and finish, and easier fine-tuning of VTF. Search for my thread called "TriPlanar Tips" if you want a sense of what living with that arm is like. Good luck and happy hunting, Doug |
Dan,
Great report. Glad to hear you made it home okay and that you're high enough not to be flooded. We didn't think about it when we bought our home, but I'm glad we chose one on a ridge line and not down in some valley bottom. Some of our neighbors are suffering, though some of yours are suffering more.
CB told us about his DD project over a year ago and I've been biting my tongue. I kinda wish you'd said it was no big deal. Sigh...
Just out of curiosity, how much bigger/taller/wider is the 380 compared to a 320. (I'm hoping you'll tell me it's the size of a refrigerator, so I'll have a reason to stop thinking about it!)
Regards to you and your incredibly patient wife,
Doug |
Dan,
The 320 and 380 are about the same size? Egad! You'll have to help us out my friend. I just mailed Nick some RatShack resistors for your new preamp and suggested he wire it with lamp cord, instead of that exotic stuff he normally uses. He thanked me for a great cost-control idea and - here's the good news - he's splitting the savings with me. Woo-hoo! We're on our way to a 380! ;-)
Interesting differences you heard between Thom's UNIverse and Chris's. If Thom's was set up on a DPS while Chris's was on a Ref, that alone would cause dynamic differences. The Ref has more powerful magnets. In our direct comparisons at Cello's it had more stability on big dynamic hits and a lower noise floor on trailing edge decays. The DD table probably contributed also, as you said. |
Thom,
You let poor audiophile Dan get away without hearing the best available arm/cartridge combo? We need to talk... ;-)
I haven't heard the Dyna, but I totally concur with Thom's differentiation of the Schroeder Ref and TriPlanar VII. With the same cartridge on each arm, the Schroeder is slightly better at tone and timbre, the TriPlanar is slightly better at leading edge transients and pace.
Even side-by-side these differences are subtle. No one could be unhappy with either arm. Thom's standing advice is very good IMO: chose the arm that suits your budget and style, and that seems most comfortable to set up and live with.
I once urged Tri Mai to drill and tap the TriPlanar's end stub for a fine VTF adjustment screw, as Frank now does on his Model 2. I was disappointed that his recent upgrades to the TP VII didn't include this. O-rings work fine, but they are a bit hokey and they add 59 cents to the cost!
Now back to your regularly scheduled turntable thread...
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Frank,
Are you sure that wasn't Tri Mai you were "modifying"?
Nobody's heard from him in days. ;-)
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Thom's mention of the demo room effect and two listener types reminded me of a recent experience. Our new SPM speaker cables have less zing and obvious pizzaz than our old Blue Heavens. In the first few minutes (ie, in the demo room) we both wondered if something was missing, if HF's weren't a bit suppressed.
After a bit more thought and listening, it became clear that what was missing was bloat on the HF's. We discuss LF bloat all the time, but it occurs at all frequencies. Maybe we call that "smearing".
At any rate, once we stopped missing the excess "detail" from the Blue Heavens it became clear that the SPM's are superior from top to bottom. Violins sound more like violins and less like VIOLINS. Triangles and tambourines are the size they should be, etc.
Sorry for the digression. I just appreciated Thom's point and wanted to emphasize the risk in making quick judgements based on what sounds exciting.
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Dan,
Congrats on your decision and thanks for sharing your journey with us. I expect Thom's table will keep you spinning and smiling for many years, perhaps forever.
I believe Thom's shipping account with UPS has a mileage limit, and that NH is just beyond it. As a practical matter you could have him ship the table to us in CT. You could pick it up at your convenience of course, after I've done a thorough same-system A/B of course! <:~)
Our Airy 2/3 review mentioned exactly what Larry just warned you about. The Airy 3/Graham 2.2 combo was too excitable from the upper mids on up. Four of us spent an entire day trying to tame it, to no avail. Mehran does have happy Airy 3/Graham 2.2 owners, so it may have been something else in the system , but no other cartridge I've heard on Larry's Graham was so problematic.
The specific design goal for the Airy 3 was "greater freedom" than the Airy 2, which is neutral but rather "polite". The Airy 3 does provide far greater freedom (ie, dynamics), but it needs a well controlled arm. A TriPlanar will control the Airy 3, just.
If most of your vinyl listening is rock I'd be wary of the Airy 2. You might find it too tame. If the UNIverse is out of reach, an Airy 3/TriPlanar will provide ZYX's famed neutrality and also rock the house.
Get the SB option no matter which ZYX you choose. It will help on either of your arms. Consider the silver coils if you want a tiny bit of smoothing on leading edge mids and highs. (Like a Koetsu, but not as much.) Choose copper coils if you want crisper, more natural and more dynamic transient responses.
I've actually not heard a cartridge I like on Larry's 2.2. Maybe follow SirSpeedy's lead and try a Transfiguration? He seems very happy with that combo.
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Dan,
Lasagnushi is a secret password, used only by a few cognoscenti during their most sacred rites. If you post it again Jyprez, Swampwalker and I will send Opus Galibier after you!
I don't think Larry and I disagree on the UNIverse/2.2 as a combo. The UNIverse is well behaved on every arm it's been tried on, including the 2.2. That combo would give you no problems. It's just not as alive or involving as the UNIverse/Schroeder and UNIverse/TriPlanar combos.
Larry has posted similar impressions in the past, so I believe we're on the same page. Of course if you buy a UNIverse you'll soon be able to repeat our 2.2 vs. TriPlanar comparison using your own table. Then you can tell us.
As Larry suggested, if it were me I'd sell the 2.2 and buy a Schroeder to pair with your TriPlanar. Based on the posts on this thread and your own recent experience, a UNIverse/TriPlanar + XV-1S/Schroeder setup would have the cognoscenti flocking to your chambers.
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Dan,
You left that extra $12K here. Wasn't that your share of the lasagnushi?
Nick,
I'm a pussycat. Paul's the one who turned that EL34 into a puddle of melted glass. I think he biased the amp up to 800mv or something. Apparently it sounded fabulous for a minute or two. Then the glow frightened the neighbors!
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