+1 Corelli regarding the appearance of the Tom's 300b amplifier. Purposeful, robust and neat.
Charles |
John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman, the epitome of a timeless classic. I’ve had that recording for over twenty years and still listen to it on a regular basis.
Charles |
Tom, the list of CDs you have ordered is comprised of magnificent jazz musicians. Your system when I heard it was already very good. Given the evolution of this system since then I believe that you have moved upward to a higher tier. You will be swept away by the sheer artistry, emotion and talent these great musicians possess. There will be no looking back from this point onward IMO.
Charles |
My takeaway is "no" audio product will please every listener. The Tekton Double Impact is no exception to this fact,
Charles |
Hi David,
My thoughts regarding nitrobob’s listening impressions mirror yours. Incapatible electronics (for this speaker) in the signal path not gelling with the Double Impacts, this more So than distance between speaker and listener.
When I heard Tom’s DIs the sitting distance seemed to be about 8 or 9 feet away and there were no issues. In his system set up midrange was clearly a strength. But to be fair the preamp and power amplifier were very different from what nitrobob used. So not surprising that the outcome is different.
Nitrobob will undoubtedly find speakers more suitable to his components and his particular taste and needs. Nothing new, once agai demonstrating the importance of audio system synergy IMO.
Charles
|
In fact I'd say if anything has been made clear regarding the Double Impacts over the course of this thread is their compatibility with a "wide" variety of amplifiers.
C |
I will point out that quite a few DI owners have posted here of excellent results using high power solid state/class D amplifiers.
Charles |
Teajay,
Regarding the preferred listening volumes of nitrobob I feel the same as James. Some things just are self evident in life. Sheer common sense would dictact that listening regularly at 110 SPL is most certainly risking permanent hearing loss. What reasonable person would require reminding of this (obvious) point?
I have always made the assumption that we are mature adults who freely determine what suits them for better or worse. I won’t tell someone what’s the proper SPL they should adhere to. I just know what is right for me, to each their own. An analogy, you shouldn’t have to tell someone not to remove the radiator cap of an overheated car engine.
Charles |
Hi Teajay,
Essentially we’re making the same point. I understand the desire of some listeners who like to as they put it "crank it up". If this is done only occasionally then probably little harm to one's hearing ability .
In my own experience I’ve come to realize that as the resolution and signal purity retention of your system improves you can actually enjoy music at lower or reasonable listening levels.
When a system reaches this degree of performance it "does" allow one to listen at higher SPL without stress or strain but there’s less of a need to do this to achieve listening satisfaction. That’s my 2 cents worth.
Charles |
Hi nitrobob,
To be clear, obviously it's your call as to how loud a volume you prefer listening to music, no argument. You are correct, certain people seemingly defy known or established risk factors. For example the person who smoked a pack of cigarettes per day for 60 years and lived to an age of 100 years. It happens.
You have apparently suffered no ill effects to your hearing despite high SPL exposure, congratulations my friend. 110 db SPL is too much for me. As I said before, we all make our choices .
Charles |
Hi nitrobob,
Regarding the heavy cigarette smokers,There will always be outliers found in any group or population. I'm not surprised by the absence of condescending replies, there are many good folks on this thread. You'll find a speaker that will meet your particular needs.
Charles
|
David,
We're you using A or C weighted scale for your readings? Curious as C weighted will measure roughly 8 to 10 db higher at a given volume if a meter allows switching between the two scales. I use C weighted/fast scale.
Charles |
David,
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Charles |
Very good discussion on this worthwhile topic of vibration/resonance management. There are no shortage of products available that's for sure. I happen to use the Star Sound Apprentice platforms under all of my components and speakers. They are very effective and unquestionably improve the sound quality. Most especially with speakers. It's a well thought out and engineered product.
Charles |
David,
Thanks for taking the time to post your listening impressions and comparison of the 2 Tekton speakers. Given your clear writing I feel that I have a very good understanding of what distinguishes them apart. Congratulations! It seems they (SEs) are going to be long term keepers. I'm assuming that you prefer them over the Volti speakers you had a while back.
Charles |
Hi Tom,
Now that is an encouraging initial listening report 😊. I believe that the addition of the Aric Audio 300b amplifier and matching preamplifier is going to put you into deep sonic bliss orbit.
Charles |
Tom,
No doubt that the MZ2 is a fine Line Stage. However it’s possible that Aric may create some synergy magic given he building them to match as a pair. You’ll find out soon😊.
Charles |
Tom,
I ’don’t find your results unusual. The build/designer himself made this recommendation, he would know😊. The beauty of speaker repositioning is it’s cost free and just requires some time and effort. You trust your ears to determine which position is best for your room. Tom you have good ears so you’ll get it figured out right.
Charles |
I'll state the obvious, this would certainly be room, system and listener dependant. But again this is why experimentation is such fun.
Charles |
Hi Tom,
It is very satisfying to know that you are so happy with your current audio system. You've certainly have made many changes and it appears unquestionably each was an undeniable upgrade. You should be very proud of what you have accomplished. Your system must sound truly divine.
Having a 2nd different type of amplifier makes sense ,. No single type of topology will cover "every" musical or sonic parameter perfectly. That amplifier doesn't exist. I have 3 power amplifiers but admittedly rely on the 300b SET 99% of the time. The type of music I enjoy the most and listen to most often just sounds better with that amplifier in use.
However this choice is obviously driven by individual need and preference. It will be interesting to know what second amplifier type you eventually settle on. In the meantime congratulations on your current audio system achievement.
Charles |
Tom,
Thank you for your very kind comments. I'm sincerely looking forward to hearing your revised system and will bring along recordings I think you may enjoy.
Charles |
David,
I referenced listener taste/preference because it’s an unavoidable factor in that people "do"hear and interpret differently.
1. Clean and neutral to one listener is dry and analytical to another 2. Full bodied and tonally/harmonically rich to one listener is gratuitous and colored to another.
People do have notable differences in perception even when sitting side by side listening to the exact same system. I’ve had this type of experience. I am not suggesting my interpretation was the correct one, just that someone else heard something quite different from what I heard. It happens.
Charles
|
Hi David,
Your chicken analogy nails it and is such an excellent illustration of how distinct (and significant) the personal "taste"(😅) variable is. I couldn't summit a better analogy.
Charles |
Tom,
Honestly in regard to the line stages I just believe that it's a combination of listener taste and system /component synergy. You're describing in your system the same result as we heard in my system. When you brought the MZ to my home we felt that compared to the Coincident Statement Line Stage.
The MZ in my system was leaner, thinner, smaller sounding or as you put it anemic. Yet in contrast teajay finds it to be superb in his system. I have absolutely no reason to question his results although they're quite different from my experience. Different audio systems and rooms, just how it goes with audio matters.
It seems that based on your comments and listening impressions Aric's Line Stage seems more similar to mine. I would imagine that in some systems the MZ is an ideal fit.
Charles |
Man, I'm disappointed with the Vikings, they just didn't show up tonight, holy cow! Okay back to the regular program 😊😊.
Charles |
Hi David,
I don’t believe that any "baseline" adjustment is in order for you. Admittedly the High End vocabulary isn’t precise nor universal. This is further exacerbated when attempting communication via a forum format. Tom chose anemic and I immediately knew what he meant to convey.
Anemic in this sonic context means less full bodied sound, not preserving the innate natural tonal colors and harmonic richness. In other words something is stripped away resulting in a "lite" lower calorie alternative. Or less arthoritative dynamics (less powerful or forceful) presentation relatively speaking. Summarized, less meat on the bone and less of a flesh and blood (visceral) presence.
Again I recognize this is quite different from what Teajay has experienced in his own excellent reviewer’s system. To be very clear the MZ2 was not "bad"sounding, just however a "lite" rendition compared to Tom’s and my Line Stages. Our lite/anemic is another man’s "just right" neutral balance. Actually I don't mean to speak for Tom or put words in his mouth. He is more than capable of expressing himself.
Charles |
David,
Here's a vivid example of listeners hearing the same system and recordings in real time and having very contrasting impressions.
At CES in the late 1990s I attended a demonstration rearranged by Dr. Keith Johnson playing some of his HDCD Reference recordings. The system was all Spectral electronics driving Avalon speakers. He allowed me to summit one of my CDs to play.
Boy was I disappointed, very lean, dry and clinical sound. A friend with me whispered to me "sterile". The Reference recordings played by Dr. Johnson had the same clinical sound in this system. Yet other listeners in the room felt the sound quality was nothing short of superb and they really raved about it. A very stark contrast to what my friend and I heard.
Charles |
Hi Sbayne,
I don't know what accounts for such wide differences in listening impressions. I do hear live acoustical music fairly often. Others in that room certainly could have had as much or more exposures to live music as I.
Obviously Dr. Johnson has more than I have and yet he was very happy and proud of the music reproduction from that system. I've heard Reference recordings sound quite a bit better in other systems.
Charles |
Hi Terry,
I haven’t read your review of the Pass Labs XA 25 but will do so. If this is a simpler circuit design with fewer part count. I could certainly believe it sonically exceeds other Nelson Pass efforts. I can understand his decision to go with minimalist single ended rather than balance circuit. Only 2 transistors per channel? He does seem to have much genuine passion for these type of amplifiers.
For all the talk concerning balanced audio components I can’t honestly say that they sound superior to non balanced components. I can say that some of the very finest sounding systems I’ve heard were based upon simpler single ended be they tube or solid state. Based on Nelson Pass writings and DIY contributions I get the sense he leans in this direction for maximum purity of sound. Just my hunch. Balanced components do however have a large segment of happy advocates no doubt. .
Charles |
Dave,
+1 Tom's comments. Very well depressed and an enjoyable read.
David,
Congratulations on your excellent system. You've put the wok and time in to achieve this level of success.
Charles |
Iaaduionut,
From the description of Aric's "Cost no object " preamplifier I do believe that it will provide truly superb sound quality. Choosing the Duelund CAST PIO as coupling capacitors is an excellent decision, truly top tier quality. Big power transformer and overbuilt power supply, another excellent decision. How much line stage section gain will it have? I look forward to your listening impressions.
Charles |
Iaaduionut,
26 db of gain is a "lot" of gain for the line stage. Your speakers are pretty sensitive at 94 db . My speakers are 94 db as well and my Line Stage has 10 db of gain. Most often I am using the volume control (VC) in the 11AM to 2PM setting. With your 26 db of gain you may find your VC limited to a very narrow range of use and probably below the 10AM level or else it becomes too loud. I trust Aric’s judgement but 26 db is a very high level of gain. Is the gain level adjustable?
Charles |
Hi Aric,
Good point, total system gain is what I was alluding to and of course the gain of the power amplifier needs to be known. My amplifier most probably has more gain than the Pass Labs amplifier. In my system 18 db of gain from the preamplifier was too much(very loud at 10AM VC setting) 10 db is ideal (for my amplifier). Another consideration would be the front end (source) voltage output.
Charles
|
Another variable regarding power amplifiers is their sensitivity as measured in volts would influence the correct gain level of the preamplifier. Some amplifiers can be driven to full output with 1 volt or even less (My amplifier sensitivity is 0.7V). Some amplifiers are less sensitive and may require 2 or 3 volts to drive to full output. The Pass Labs may be in this latter category.
Charles
|
Tom,
Power (watts) and gain are two different issues. Again your amplifier may have higher sensitivity than the typical power amplifier and this affects overall system gain requirements. Your preamplifier may be a high gain design (>16 db).
Charles |
Tom,
If your 300b amp has similar sensitivity to my Frankenstein and If your Concert Fidelity DAC output voltage is 2 volts or higher (My DAC is 3.1V) and with your 94 db speakers you don’t require much preamplifier gain. I've been down this road 😊.
Charles
|
Tom,
I don’t doubt for a moment that your pre and power amplifier combo sound wonderful. If you can’t use your volume control much above 9AM it does suggest that there’s more gain in your system than you need. Ideally you want to be able to use the volume at a higher setting as this allows more VC range flexibility and "finer" gradients of volume adjustments.
My initial Coincident Statement Line Stage had 18 db of gain and VC was very limited to 8 to 10AM. I sent it back and had the gain deduced to 10db. As I stated above this provided a much broader (useful) range of the VC. You can try Rothwell attenuators (plugs in RCA receptor between the preamp and amplifier. They’re available in various levels of db reduction i.e. 4,6,12 db. They’re pretty effective. Harrison Labs is another brand to consider.
Charles |
Well then the Pass Labs amplifier has 4 db more gain than my Frankenstein. At least on paper it seems 26 db of gain in the preamplifier is quite a "generous " match for that amplifier. Although if the gain is adjustable then a suitable setting should be possible. |
Tom,
I agree with Al regarding the attenuators, Rothwell vs Harrison Labs and for the reasons he gave. They aren't expensive so you may want to get several different ratings to see which provides the desired level of reducing db (excess gain). For example 4 db reduction may not be enough and 20 db decrease could be too much. These devices are pretty transparent and shouldn't alter the sound quality. I'd shoot for a level that allows you to listen at your typical levels with the VC near or at the 11AM to 12 noon position.
Charles |
+1 Corelli. Aric your contributions are an asset IMO.
Charles |
Hi Laaudionut,
Congratulations! Based on the description of the Motherlode I bet it's truly exceptional. Those superb Duelund CAST capacitors will continue to improve as they accumulate hours of use. Excellent choice of coupling capacitors.
Charles |
Sbayne,
Words of wisdom.
Charles |
Hi jcarcopo,
I've learned that it isn't worth the energy and emotion to get upset about what others do regarding audio decisions. Sbayne nailed it, home audition is unquestionably the best way to evaluate an audio product. It someone feels it isn't worth the required effort and some inconvenience "move on" . Sbayne is right.
Charles |
Hi csmgolf,
I can’t speak for anyone else on this thread but I don’t see any response to your posts that rise to the level of an attack. You post on an open forum and naturally some will reply to your comments. You expressed your thoughts and this generated feedback. Where are the attacks toward you? This is just normal forum back and forth dialogue on an acknowledged discussion site.
Charles |
csmgolf,
Believe me I understand your position on hearing speakers of interest at shows. This does act to a certain degree as a screening process and is better than no exposure at all. My point is that if there is very serious interest in definitively judging a speaker home audition is the undisputed best option.
Regarding Zu speakers my listening impressions at audio shows (4 separate occasions) have been the same disappointing result.
Just unimpressed. Each occasion was the same. Very loud rock music and driven with solid state amplifiers, outcome= poor sound quality. Perhaps I needed to hear them with acoustic jazz at reasonable volume levels driven by a good tube (or solid state) amplifier, who knows?
Charles |
Laaudionut,
What output tube have you decided to base the SET amplifier on, 2A3, 300b,845,211? I’m certain that Aric will build you a superb custom power amplifier worthy of your Motherlode. Friendly suggestion, get the best output transformers you can afford😊.
Charles |
Hello Joe,
Without exception each account where someone has heard or owned both models they unequivocally say that as good as the Double Impact is the SE is the superior speaker. If you can comfortably afford the SE I’d suggest going that route. Decide what type of amplifier sound you most desire (as you’ll heard it with this speaker). My philosophy is get the best that you can responsibly afford and don’t look back.
I’m pleased with my current system to an extraordinary extent. If I decided to just start anew (If only to have something different) I would very seriously contemplate the Double Impact SE and mate them to the Line Magnetic 508ia or a Viva Solista and be done.
Charles |
Joe,
Honestly I don’t believe that a consensus of amplification has been established. Very happy DI owners have posted here and a pretty fair number of them are using solid state amplifiers with much success.
As has been pointed out often on this thread, the DI allows a very wide range of amplifier types to be used with excellent results. One of this speaker’s more noteworthy attributes. 3 watt SET or 600 watt class D (and all stops between) the DI has worked well across an enormous spectrum of amplifiers.
I’d certainly give the Parasound a chance with the DI/SE, you just never know unless you listen 😊.
Charles |
David,
Congratulations the new T+A integrated amplifier. I know you conducted an admirably thorough audition with it compared to other excellent and highly regarded competitors. Given your objective and preferences you made the best choice in my opinion . I believe that it will mate exceptionally well with the high resolution yet natural sounding Double Impact SE.
Charles |
Hi Corelli,
Tom wasn’t putting words in my mouth. He graciously invited me to his home to hear his completely revamped audio system. Simply put his system sounds absolutely wonderful and is very musically engaging. We have very similar taste in music (jazz) and his system does it genuine justice. Musical flow, fluidity, tonality, dynamic contrast are all there.
His Auric audio amplification and Concert Fidelity DAC delivered a high quality audio signal that the Double Impact SE handled beautifully. It was indeed a very enjoyable visit and music listening experience. Tom has put together a really fine "natural " sounding system.
Charles |
