Aric,
I sure agree with your comments on triode compared to ultralinear mode. Although a 300b SET is my main amplifier I also have 2 PP tube amplifiers. One is el 34 and the other is 6550/KT 88 and both are switchable between the two modes of operation. At least for my listening preferences the Triode mode is just better sounding . Totally subjective I acknowledge.
Charles |
Aric,
I really like the 845 tube,probably as much as I do the 300b. I’ve thought about having a 845 or 211 SET as a second amplifier as I’m keeping the Frankenstein permanently. I don’t use my 2 push pull amplifiers much at all anymore. I suspect that you could build a very fine 845/211 SET.
Here’s my question, would I achieve "maximum " sound quality running these tubes very conservatively at say 15 to 20 watts output rather than the more common 25 to 30 watt range? The emphasis being pure quality of sound not higher power. Or is the sound as good with the higher output?
Thanks,
Charles |
So many fine amplifier options are available for this speaker.
Charles |
Aric,
Thanks, the sweetspot operating point of a tube is where I want to be. 18 to 22 watts is far from stressing the 845 which is an additional advantage.
Charles
|
Hi Bill (Grannyring),
I feel that your assessment of the Double Impacts is very astute. Having heard this speaker my impression matches yours. It is a very good sounding speaker. As you point out it isn’t perfect (nor is any speaker) but it has substantial modification potential.
Your scrutiny of the quality of the wire,resistors and capacitors is on the mark (given the part list you provided). You very fairly acknowledge the reasons for the stock parts and the reality of price point and market/manufacturing considerations. You and I both know that judicious selection of premium capacitors, wire, resistors etc can result in truly impressive sound quality improvement.
People upgrade passive parts in 30-40,000.00 peakers so it is not a put down of the Double Impact to suggest the same. Your budget of 1500.00 dollars to upgrade (if so desired) would transform a very good sounding speaker to an even higher level. Good post and advice.you provided to this thread.
Charles |
Corelli,
Well said and so true. Obviously borne of wisdom gained by the listening experience.
Charles |
Hi hfaddict, You’ve got to trust what you hear 😊. That’s an intriguing combination, panel speaker driven by a 50 watt SET amplifier.
Continued blissful listening to you.
Charles |
Hi Porscheracer,
Could simply be an example of a very synergistic speaker and amplifier match. Sometimes you just find or stumble across the ideal match. It can truly be trial and error.
Charles |
Lula,
Based on both professional reviews and owners word of mouth the Sophia 300b SET has exceptionally good sound quality. I'd think that they'd be a fine match.
Charles |
Jcarcopo,
I was an early buyer of the Takatsuki when they became available and bought mine directly from Japan. This was about 5 years ago and I payed about 1850.00 USD. I’ve heard 11 different 300b tubes in my amplifier (some bought and others loaned from generous audiogon members).
The very best sounding in my system in alphabetical order
AAVT 32B
Elrog 300b
EML XLS
KR XLS 300b
Sophia Electric Royal Princess
Takatsuki
The very best was the Elrog (but proved to be unreliable). Just a "small"step behind were the Takatsuki and EML XLS. Each is truly excellent in my opinion but have different characters.
I have come to develop a slight preference for the EML XLS. Others who’ve tried both may prefer the Takatsuki and I understand this. Both are wonderful and I believe that the choice could very well be amplifier/circuit dependent as well as listener preference.
Jcarcopo, the EML XLS is my first choice. I haven’t heard the standard version EML 300b but I been told that it’s a very good sounding tube.
Charles |
Hi Jcarcopo,
I had my Elrogs replaced twice under warranty. I had the early version of this tube and apparently my amplifier ran them too hard. Your Art Audio amplifier could be a better match. The company has new ownership and reportedly has solved the problem with these tubes. I'm hesitant to step back in and besides I'm just very happy with the EML XLS which is very stout and a wonderful fit with my amplifier. In my opinion you currently have two superb sounding tubes. I hope the Elrog proves reliable for you.
Charles |
Jcarcopo,
You summed up very well the essential characteristics of the Elrog and the EML. The only Elrog and Takatsuki have a "bit " more inner detail and "slightly" more of an organic nature. The EML XLS is nearly as organic but offers a bit more dynamic presentation, authority and boldness. To be truthful all 3 are just really excellent 300b tubes. I can recommend these top tier tubes without reservation. I'm glad to hear the Elrog has improved its reliability.
Charles |
Hi Tom,
It's refreshing to read that you've established such trust and good relationship with Aric. As we've discussed before 300b SET circuits are many decades old (and proven when done right).
Aric apparently has a good ear and building talent. Combine that with serious high quality output transformers, parts and very robust power supply and you should have a top notch SET amplifier. I have no doubt that this will be the case for you. I'm flattered the Frankenstein is your sonic reference measuring stick.
I can't wait to hear your custom 300b SET amplifier 😊.
Charles |
Tom,
I'm also a fan of live recordings (especially jazz) here's a recommendation I think that you'll enjoy very much. "Roger Kallaway At The Jazz Standard " It’s a 2 CD set.
Kallaway piano
Russell Malone guitar
Stephon Harris vibraphone
I don't recall the name of the bassist (but he's good 😊)
Top tier jazz musicians in a very good venue. Wonderful music, these gentlemen can play! Your fine system will definitely extract the musical beauty of this recording.
Charles |
Hi Aric,
Thanks for the additional information. This custom made 300b amplifier driving the Double Impact SE will be a fantastic pairing is my prediction.
Do you have an opinion regarding electrolytic versus "film" capacitors in the power supply (filtration) and is one inherently better than the other ?
Charles |
+1 Sbayne. Tom is going to receive an excellent custom built amplifier from Aric.
Charles |
Hi Jcarcopo,
By all accounts I'm aware of the Crossfire is superb. I'd love to hear this amplifier in a direct comparison to the superb sounding Italian Viva amplifiers.
If you decide to get the Crossfire I'm very interested in your listening impressions.
Charles |
Jcarcopo,
-I’m glad you are having fun with this "ordeal" 😊. Life is to be enjoyed.
Human nature dictates that a few reported bad experiences dealing with retail dealers take precedence over probably 100s (1000s?) of good transactions.
Place of origin regarding manufacturer and assembly should not be ambiguous. Ayon or any other company should be clear and upfront. Having said this the bottom line for me is the sound quality and overall quality of the product. It could be high quality from China or India and mediocre from Europe or North America.
You have a terrific amplifier already but the problem is that there are numerous superb alternatives available and we can’t own them all. I’m thrilled with my Coincident Frankenstein yet I know there are 8 to 10 other amplifiers I’m familiar with that would be as satisfying to have in my system. I only need one out of the excellent pool of amplifiers.
Charles |
Hi Bullitt,
You have no more or "less" clout than any one else posting on this thread. Many contributors here and each with an individual opinion/perspective to share. There is never going to be general consensus on anything here (other than the DI is a very good speaker). That’s the beauty of it all in my opinion. Keep posting 😊
Charles |
Hi Bullitt,
I very much appreciate your time in posting listening impressions of the 3 components . The Lyngdorf 2170 definitely seems to be an excellent audio product based on both excellent engineering and implementation. Given what others have said regarding it I’m somewhat surprised that you prefer its sound without the room correction function activated. I’m glad you have discovered such a superb match for your system. Congratulations.
Charles |
Bill,
I know how much you enjoyed your AZ Crescendo post modification so this informs me as to how well the modified Double Impacts must sound to you. Your excellent and detailed description is a terrific guide for current and future DI owners who may want to venture down the speaker improvement pathway. Fabulous contribution from you.
Charles |
Hi jacarcopo,
I can’t speak specifically about crossover modification in the Double Impacts but I do trust Bill’s (Grannyring) listening impressions and judgement. I can tell you that in my speakers replacing the stock Solen tweeter capacitor with the Duelund CAST copper foil was a very noticeable and worthwhile upgrade. Those tweeter caps do matter.
The sound quality with the Solen was very good I’ll admit. However with the Duelund CAST the sound elevated to truly superb level.
Charles |
Hi Greg,
I have the Duelund CAST copper foil PIO capacitor. Fantastic for speaker crossovers and worth every penny.
Charles |
Hi Ozzy,
I can appreciate your mounting frustration with the communication issues you’ve been experiencing. I hope you hang in there . I’ve heard the DIs and am familiar with your Atma-sphere (M 60vmonocblocks). This would be a truly fine pairing in my opinion.
Charles |
It's been my observation that the Lyngdorf 2170 has been well received on this thread. It has been praised and certainly generated quite favorable responses and interest. Where's the hostility toward it or its owners Bill? Just haven't seen this type of response here. I haven't heard it but on several threads have suggested that others look into the Lyngdorf based solely on the very positive feedback it has gotten form people whose opinion I respect. You seem very sensitive in defending this product. Again the talk about the Lyngdorf has been exceedingly positive IMO.
Charles |
Hi Bill,
Yes, I was referencing this large thread, no negativity toward the Lyngdorf 2170. I spoke with Kenny awhile ago and he’s as happy with the 2170 asv you are. I’ve yet to read of someone who has heard it and wasn’t impressed.
Charles |
Yes this is a wonderful thread and there have been many meaningful discussions concerning amplifiers with commentary from quite knowledgeable people. Disagreement and alternative perspectives are expected. It isn't possible for everyone to have the same taste and listening experiences.
Teajay has heard numerous class D including the Lyngdorf and simply prefers a different sound presentation, makes sense to me. I didn't infer that he wrote off "all" class D amplifiers, just those he has personally beard.
Bill and teajay are distinct individuals and thus that they may prefer different audio components should not be surprising or unexpected. Subjectivity is alive and well.
Charles |
James,
You’re the first person I know of who has heard both the Lyngdorf 2170 and Devialet and preferred the latter. There’s so much interesting input provided on this thread. One of the very best I’ve participated in on Audiogon. Simply excellent information on this thread concerning amplifiers (multiple points of view) from informed members.
Charles |
Ozzy,
Very reasonable questions for certain, hope you get a response soon.
Charles |
Ozzy,
As Tom (Mac48025) pointed out there many posts here of success with low power amplifiers which wouldn't be likely with a difficult speaker load. The 4 ohm Double Impacts simply sang with my 8 watt SET using the 8 ohm tap! I strongly believe that your amplifier would do at least as well. Plus as I recall you have step up transformers if heeded.
Charles |
Ozzy,
One thing this thread has confirmed is the speaker sounds very good with a "wide" range of amplifiers. I don't know who's e-mailing you and honestly some people just prefer higher power amplifiers and Will simply have that preference. My point to you was they were just wonderful with my 300b SET amplifier and its 8 watts. The room wasn't small and volume wasn't held back.
There were zero issues driving the speakers. So I just extrapolated and feel that your 60 watt OTL amplifiers "should" do as well as my 8 watt SET driving this speaker load. Just my opinion.
Charles |
LP,
60 days (even 30 days) is very generous time to audition in your own system. By far the best method to decide about an audio product. Hook them up to your amplifier and just listen. |
|
Sbayne,
Regarding ozzy moving on away from the Tektons. Maybe so but no matter what speaker he chooses down the road he’ll have to hear them in his system. He needs to determine whether or not a given speaker is a match for his amplifier and system overall. Iwill admit it seems a bit strange given his emails, calls and posts on this thread he has gotten so little in response.
Charles |
Scott,
I didn't infer that your comments were critical of Ozzy's post at all. Even if he gets the impeadanc curve information he seeks he'd still need to actually hear this speaker with his Atma-sphere amplifiers. My point to him is There's an abundance of posts here that strongly indicate the DI has easy load characteristics. I thought this would provide some degree encouragement and optimism.
Charles |
Tom,
Congratulations on your 300b SET amplifier, it sounds like Aric did a fantastic job! I think you're hearing what I hear regarding the 300b. When executed to a high standard this tube just seems made for the sole purpose of producing music beautifully and naturally.
Aric built this amplifier with high quality transformers, parts and power supply and you're hearing the result of this effort. You have the right speakers to exploit all the attributes of this 300b amplifier. I'm very nappy for you Tom.
Charles |
Ozzy,
As far as moving the speakers around folks here say the Herbie's footers are fine. for this task. Bottom line You had to do what’s best for you and I understand that. Best of luck going forward.
Charles |
Hi Tom,
If you're getting 80 to 90 db SPL at the 9 o'clock volume control position, you have a lot of system gain. Is the Micro ZOTL line stage gain adjustable?
Charles |
Aric,
Your description of the cathode capacitors explains the seeming high gain Tom has. Good to know that the gain level is adjustable. This sure seems to be a very well engineered amplifier and exceptionally good sounding based on Tom's sheer joy😊.
Tom, Just let me know when you're ready for me to come over again. Im really looking forward to it.
Charles |
Hi Aric,
I really appreciate your technical explanations and insight on this forum as they’re consistently educational. Your comments regarding the 6SN7/6SL7 tubes caught my interest. In my Frankenstein 300b SET the builder chose the 6EM7 as the input/driver tube. Apparently it’s a dual triode , One side is high current/low gain and the other half of this tube is low current/high gain. It seems there’re various ways to successfully drive the 300b.
Hello David,
Congratulations on acquiring the DI SE speakers and I look forward to your listening impressions.
Charles |
Hi Aric,
Roger Modjeski owner of Music Reference Audio builts/offers a 6EM7 amplifier in single ended and push pull versions. I’m really looking forward to hearing your 300b SET amplifier when Tom is ready to invite me over again.
He feels that it’s the best amplifier he’s owned to this point, I believe him. 300b implemented to a high standard is special as Tom has happily discovered.
BTW Aric the modification offer you made to Tom is both classy and kind IMHO.
Charles |
Hi Cordlli,
Everything I’ve read or heard about the Audio Note Kit 300b SET has been positive. It as you note uses double C core output transformers (as does the Frankenstein ) these are held in very high regard.
My gut feeling is that this amplifier and Aric’s 300b SET would both be excellent with your Double Impacts. Different design and part selection yet I truly believe that either would make you proud and happy long term.
SET amplifiers are very simple circuits and probably why they are described as pure and natural sounding if built with dedication to high quality (no cutting corners) and implementing good transformers and power supplies. In my opinion you’ll get that with either of these choices. I like Aric’s decision to go with 6SL7+6SN7 pathway.
Charles
|
Sbayne,
Thanks and I most certainly appreciate your contributions to this continually interesting (and gentlemanly) thread.
Charles |
Hi Cordlli,
Yes, the ability to work closely with the amplifier builder who clearly understands your desires and needs is a substantial plus. If you do decide to have a 300b SET amplifier custom built I don’t believe you’ll regret it. Just know for sure what you want out of that amplifier and either of these builders Iam confident will come through for you.
Charles |
Hi brotw,
My sentiments mirror David's, no doubt that your amplifier and speaker pairing sound exceptionally well. Congratulations.
Charles |
Hi Tom,
Bill (Grannyring) has in my opinion given you excellent advice and recommendations. The speakers you heard in my home were Coincident Total Eclipse II with Duelund CAST copper foil capacitors. Fortunately I only required one pair of 5.6uf for the tweeters, that was it thankfully.
This was done about 5 years ago and cost me about 600 or 700.00 dollars. Absolutely worth every penny. As Bill noted the cost using big value or multiple Duelunds grows exponentially in a hurry. It was Bill who suggested the Duelund CAST to me 5 years ago, time truly does fly.
That one simple tweeter capacitor change elevated the sound from "very" good to superb in my opinion.
Charles |
Thanks Tom, I really look forward to hearing your system again with the insignificant changes you've made. I enjoyed my last visit there but very interested to listen given the recent transformation.
Charles |
Hi Aric,
If you were commissioned to build a cost no object SET amplifier, for the power supply would you prefer for ultimate sound quality
1. High quality electrolytic caps with film bypass cap or
2. Film caps exclusively (No electrolytic at all) ?
In the signal path, very high quality coupling capacitors or an interstage transformer? I imagine a good case could be made for either.
As I've said before I appreciate your insight.
Thanks,
Charles |
Corelli,
During the winter do you resort to stationary cycling at home or a gym?
My outdoor track interval workouts are done until around mid March.
Charles
|
Aric,
Thank you for your clearly explained reply. I certainly realize that there’s more than one way to design and build an excellent sounding amplifier. I do like exposure to various perspectives and continue to learn from knowledgeable builders such as yourself.
Charles
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