Another highly regarded 6SN7 preamplifier is the Dehavilland Ultra Verve 3. Should definitely fit into the desired budget rang if used. . Their Mercury preamplifier is also held in high regard.
Charles |
Kenny,
The LTA M2Z-S is such an obvious choice I didn't bother to mentioned it in my posts earlier. I just assumed awareness of it given the multiple times its been discussed in this very active thread. So I thought I would offer a few alternatives.
Charles |
Brotw,
The Pass Labs XA 30.8 and the LM 508ia would be a compelling comparison. Both are considered to be excellent yet presumably with distinctly different presentations.
Charles |
James,
Yep, that’s the hallmark of a good quality speaker. The sound quality of the Double Impact is dependent on what's placed up steam in the signal pathway. This is why I find the negative and dismissive comments regarding this speaker unwarranted ànd misinformed.
Charles |
Joe (Snopto),
I'm certain that participants on this thread will appreciate your always thorough commentary as you describe your 2 power amplifier's sonic characteristics driving the Horning Eufrodite speakers. Regarding the Line Stages I am looking forward to hearing the MZ2-S in my system.
Charles |
Hi David,
What I meant in regard to comparing the Line Magnetic SET and the Pass Labs is the contrast between very different topologies and design.
1 DHT tube versus bipolar transistors.
2 No NFB vs some NFB
3 moderately high output impedance vs low output impedance
4 Low vs higher damping factor
5 Very different input circuits
With these significant contrasts most would expect resulting different sonic character. Of course listening is the only way to confirm these assumptions thus my curiosity.
Charles |
Hi Joe (Snopro),
As others have said your comments and opinions are most welcome and appreciated on this thread. You and I have shared dialogue on this forum for a number of years and I’ve the "upmost" regard for your always insightful contributions. As others have noted, you have assembled an excellent audio system.
There is simply no audio component that will please everyone all the time, impossible task. Some people scoff at the idea of synergy, I certainly do not. Multip6 variables determine the final sound quality of a system, what is a good fit here is a bad fit there. That’s why much of High End Audio revolves around trial and error. You just don’t really know until you’ve heard it and preferably in your own system.
You did exactly this and honestly stated your individual listening experiences, what more can one do? The LTA MZ2-S was/is fabulous for Teajay in his system. Your findings have equal validity, I respect both you and your listening experiences.
I heard this line stage with my Frankenstein in Tom’s system and the match was quite good sounding in my opinion. Tom will bring the MZ2-S to my home in a few days and we’ll compare it to the Coincident Statement Line Stage.
Charles |
Hi Muzikmann,
I will do that.
Charles |
David,
I described both the Line Magnetic and the Pass Labs as being regarded as excellent amplifiers. Some speakers by design are meant to be used with amplifiers with low output impedance and consequently higher damping factor for sufficient woofer control. This scenario would favor the Pass Labs transistors.
The admirable beauty of the Double Impacts is a variety of different àmplifier types can be used with success. I’d expect the Pass Labs to excel in the region of "tighter" bass control as this is a strength of good solid state amplifiers. I’d expect the Line Magnetic SET to have a edge in tone, timbre and 3 dimensional presentation.
As Snopro pointed out in his 2 amplifier comparison (SET versus solid state) there is overlapping sonic qualities between the two as well as inevitable distinct advantages or strengths of each individually. I can understand why Snopro has kept both superb amplifiers. It gets tricky if you can only have one, then personal taste rules the day.
Charles |
Hi David,
I freely acknowledge that tone and timbre are subjective evaluations. There’s no way to measure this parameter. I personally rely on my pretty frequent exposure to live acoustic music heard in venues that don’t use microphones on the performers.
The audio equipment that comes closest to this sound is what I choose. Non scientific yet very effective for me over the years. Naturally what sounds like correct tone and timbre reproduction to me may not to you or another listener. No argument there but when all is said and done I trust what I hear.
No doubt that some would argue that solid state sounds equal or better in regard to tone, I get that, it's a very individual judgement call. So I can understand Snopro's Frankenstein versus Pass Labs when comparing tonality. You could hear both and give the tonality edge to the Pass Labs. Simply a matter of perspective.
Charles |
I currently have a borrowed First Watt S.I.T push pull version by Mr. Pass himself for the D,I,Y, community which he loves. Pure class A and 40 watts, this is quite a good sounding amplifier with exceptional tone/timbre. Yet in direct comparison with the Frankenstein the SET has more purity and tonal authenticity in my opinion. The presentation is also more emotionally engaging with the SET. Snopro noted the same in his 2 amplifier comparison. I guess we both hear in a similar fashion.
Charles |
Hello David,
I’m in complete agreement with you concerning the immense complexity of the auditory-brain pathway and it’s associated anatomy, physiology and processing mechanisms. For certain there’s much scholarly effort and research into this topic.
Fortunately as a consumer and music lover it doesn’t require an in depth exploration into this field of study. We can listen to various components and choose what we feel sounds best to us. . The beauty is that High End audio offers many options and most of us eventually find and buy what we’re after.
I just assume that you bought your Pass Labs XA 30.8 based on "listening" just as I use this same criteria (listening) to purchase the Frankenstein. It easily passed the realistic/-believable tone/timbre test to my satisfaction 😊. I’m sure your Pass amplifier did the same for you.
At the end of the day my only objective is to do what’s necessary to make my listening to music experience at home better and more emotionally involving.
Charles |
David,
I’ve heard Volta a few times at shows (but only with the Border Patrol amplifiers) and they were good sounding speakers.
I think that the tone and timbre is a more simplistic issue for me and probably more of a dilemma for you. By that I mean I don’t analyze it to the extent you do. I am simplcstic in that I really just rely on what I hear and go with my reaction to it. That makes sense as we’re 2 people who have their own individual quests, standards and approach to audio. True diversity if you will 😊
No doubt that your Pass Labs XA 30.8 does justice to both the Volti and Double Impact speakers. I can tell you that the First Watt amplifier loaned to me sounds very fine driving my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers. I hope you’re having an enjoyable Labor day.
Charles |
Muzikmann and Snopro,
You two express an interest in the LTA MZ2-S and the Coincident Statement Line Stage (CSL) comparison. Tom (Mac48025) described the differences well and I really appreciate him brining his preamplifier to hear in my system this afternoon.
The MZ2-S was a good match as a preamplifier with the Frankenstein driving Tom’s Double Impacts, transparent, fast and clear with very good detail retrieval. In my system it exhibited the same traits. In direct A/B comparison with the CSL I heard the following areas of improvement with the CSL playing the same music after both were sufficiently warmed up.
1 Dynamic energy, contrast and increased "pop/startle factor"
2 Instrumental weight and presence, the sense of flesh on the bone" noticeable increased.
3 Superior musical ebb and flow, swing and soulfulness, Musicians were more in the room and very tactile with that elusive the "breath of life " aura, or you being in the recording venue. In short, more reach out and touch vibe taking place.
4 Larger scale presentation across the board and particularly with rhythm section instruments i.e.piano, stand up bass and drums very significantly more present and realistic.
I would categorized the MZ2-S as a "good" High End preamplifier.
The CSL would be by relative comparison be categorized as "superb" it is very transparent and very open. The main distinction between the two is noticeably more dynamic force, weight and superior harmonic richness,fuller tone, overtones and texture. The MZ2-S relatively speaking has a leaner and lighter weight/presence and sounds smaller in scale. This made it sound less (but not devoid) emotionally engaging.
To put in proper context the MZ2-S is 1800.00 dollars and weighs about 5 pounds and has a separate small power supply of about 3 pounds.
The CSL is 5500.00 dollars, is 2 chassis and total weight of 70 pounds (power supply chassis weighs 40 pounds).
In my opinion Tom’s Double Impacts would easily reveal the differences due to their resolving ability.
Charles |
Hi David,
Lastweek when I went to Tom's home I thought about bringing the CLS along with the Frankensteins (which are mono blocks). Simple truth, I didn't feel like lugging 4 component chassis with a combined weight of 140 mpouds. Besides we wanted to primarily hear the DI and Frankenstein pairing with the M2Z-S as the preamplifier.
Today's listening comparison told us both what we needed to know using my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers. The Double Impacts would reveal the preamplifier contrasts easily I believe.
Charles |
David,
I didn't know you had interest in the CSL at some point in time. It and the Frankenstein are a very high quality pairing. I believe that any genuinely good Line Stage and power amplifier pairing will work quite successfully with the Double Impacts.
Charles |
I would say that you can not stereotype the sound character of a specific tube type, for example the 300b is "romantic ". This can be misleading due to oversimplification. The critical determinant is the level of implementation of the amplifier.
Yes each type of tube has sonic characteristics that distinguish one from another but this factor can be overstated as well. You can listen to 5 different 300b amplifiers and recognize that you could sort them out and rank each one based on sound quality. The 300b and "any" tube type^can successfully play multiple music genres if design and implementation are high caliber.
The same is true of transistor amplifiers. Krell, Bryston, Pass Labs ,McIntosh etc. all sound distinctly different from each other despite all being solid state. This is why actually listening to the audio product is such a relevant point.
It's very difficult to avoid discussing amplifiers when discussing speakers, so critical is the matching of the two items.
Charles |
Hi David (schw05),
Very nice and informative post! I have no doubt that you have a wonderful sounding audio system. I suspect it will keep you very happy and content for years. It seems that the Lyngdorf is quite an achievement and surpasses most class D amplifiers I've heard thus far. Congratulations.
Charles |
Hi Mikirob,
Do me a favor, if you do decide to audition or buy a Lyngdorf 2170 please let me know your listening impressions. You and I seem to approach and listen to music in a very similar manner. I'm opened minded to the new and different and have given many types of audio products a listen.
Often I find that the hype and promises don't quite hit the market and that hyperbole is alive and well. To be perfectly fair the Lyngdorf could be a bird of a different feather and that would be quite a special development.
I do not doubt what others hear testify to but I don't know how they listen or what they seek or prefer musically. I "think" that I have some reasonable idea of what draws you into music on an emotional level and this aspect is key for me.
I've listened to audio components highly praised by others that were not nearly as impressive to me. I'm not suggesting by any means my ears or listening skills are superior to anyone else, rather it is a very personal experience and I well know what I like.
If the Lyngdorf the can really expose and get to the musical soul and emotional connecting beauty similar to what I currently experience this would be something major for a one box product. You never know.
Charles |
Musikmann,
I have read very favorable comments concerning the Melody P2688 Line Stage. I believe that it is most likely an exceptionally fine sounding component and it or the Coincident Statement Line Stage would be an asset to your system. It would of course be ideal if you could compare these two directly. As Tom and I can attest to, this answers many questions.
Charles |
Hello David,
Congratulations on ordering the DI SE version, I'm curious about this model. Exactly what are the upgrades that distinguish it from the non SE?
Does the SE use Scanspeak or some different brand of drivers?
Charles |
Hi Rob,
I can understand your dilemma regarding the Tekton line, numerous choices with degrees of overlap with in a given price range. How does one make clear delineation amongst them? Rob I can state unequivocally that the DI with the 300.00 dollar upgrade option is a very good sounding speaker. The question is how much better are the upscale Tekton models 😊
Charles |
Hello David,
I appreciate your reply regarding the somewhat mysterious Double Impact SE. Tom will go to Chicago to hear these speakers when Audio Archon receives their pair. He'll be able to provide the essential details and listening impression at that point. I didn't realize that the SE has a different cabinet. This could turn out to be a considerabley different speaker from the standard DI. This is an intriguing speaker.
Charles |
51 pages and over 2500 posts and yet this thread is as interesting, informative and thought provoking as it has ever been. This current debate on power amplifiers is providing excellent perspective and insight from very reasonable and experienced (and polite) participants here.
The subject of àmplifier choice is a natural outcome when discussing speakers given the obvious importance of achieving a sucessful pairing of the two. The Double Impact and Ulfberths seemingly increase the relevance of amplifiers due to their easy to drive characteristics which permits the use of multiple types of amplifiers.
Everyone posting here has their own listening biases and preferences and this prevents any universal concensus as to what type of amplifier is best with these speakers. Due to the musical or sonic parameters that matter most to me, high quality SET will exceed high quality solid state amplifiers.
Conversely those who have different listening parameters from me will find solid state the better option for their needs. This is completely understandable and rational. I’ll state the obvious and say there can not be a "best" amplifier that all will agree upon. This is why I find High End audio so endlessly interesting and enjoyable. Your can begin with an empty canvas and literally create/assemble an audio system just the way you desire. This is a beautiful thing 😊😊. I believe that most of those posting on this thread recognize and appreciate this opportunity.
P.S.
I'm grateful for the overall maturity displayed on this thread and the refreshing absence of trolls.
Charles |
Hello Mazikrav,
Kenny provided you with excellent recommendations given your stated listening biases. Kenny sent me his First Watt S.I.T. 40 watt push pull amplifier and I've had the pleasure of using it the past few weeks. It is simply a terrific effort by Nelson Pass, pure class A design. It is one of the very best sounding solid state amplifiers I've heard (and that is a large number believe me). Unassuming appearance but fabulous sound quality is my summary of it.
If I were to go down the transistor amplifier pathway this First Watt would be near the top of a very short and selected list. I believe that this particular amplifier or something quite similar to it would make you happy and utterly satisfied. I also believe that you'd love the Pass Labs XA 30.8 as Kenny mentioned above.
Charles
|
Mazikrav,
As mentioned above by Kenny the Lyngdorf 2170 is an option you may want to explore. I suspect that it could be quite special.
Charles |
Kenny,
Agree with your comment regarding the Dyna 70 tube amplifiers, I had one years ago. In all candor it cannot honestly be mentioned in the same breath as the higher tier well executed tube amplifiers I've owned/heard subsequently. It is very far down in the pecking order 😊. Mushy bass it certainly had, this amplifier is the antithesis of my Coincident Frankenstein.
Charles |
If you are going to be a good reviewer you have to call it as you hear it. I believe that most people will appreciate and respect the honesty whether they agree with the revierwer's impressions or not. Every component has a sonic character, I'm unaware of any dead neutral audio components.
Regarding Linear Tube Audio I don't know if there is a "house sound" throughout their line or not. My listening experience is only with the MZ2-S as an integrated amplifier and used as a preamplifier in Tom's and my system. It has a clear,fast and detailed sound presentation. Relative to the Coincident components the MZ2-S has a lighter and leaner sound character, less tonal fullness or harmonic richness. Overall less weight and color saturation/vividness.
It will be a matter of which type of presentation someone is seeking.
Charles |
Correct, no way suggesting the MZ2-S is not good, just that it had its specific sonic character traits which contrast to familiar components that I currently own.
Charles |
Jetter,
You are right regarding the popularly of the Dyna ST 70 amplifiers, Yes modification can improve them up to a certain point, agreed. I didn’t have the difficulties with mine as Muzikrav experienced. My only point is that you can proceed "-far" beyond the scope of what the Dynaco has to offer . I believe that Kenny was making this same observation as well.
The Dyna ST 70 is very affordable and allows one to experiment with various upgrade projects and learn but IMO it has limitations compared to other options. I would say it does have a nice midrange but has obvious weaknesses in bass and upper frequencies, and other areas.
You can go further with better quality tube power amplifiers, much further. I would not use this amplifier as an adequate example when comparing the merits of what tubes provide sonically versus solid state amplifiers.
Charles |
Hi Cal,
You are welcome. Despite my Frankenstein MK II having only an 8 and 16 ohm speaker taps it did sound marvelous driving the 4 ohm Double Impacts. It does make me wonder that the current Frankenstein with 4 ohm taps would very likely improve the quality of sounnd even further.
Charles |
Mazikrav,
I haven’t heard the Lyngdorf 2170 but I trust the opinion of Grannyring and he says it is superb.
Charles |
Yep, I also like the Tekton approach to design and manufacturing speakers. I don’t own them but I would really like to see them succeed in the High End audio marketplace. It is a wise decision to make their speakers more efficient/higher sensitivity and easy to drive, just plain common sense in my opinion.
Expanding the variety of amplifiers one is able to use is a very positive circumstance. This thread is proof that people are using all manner of amplifier types quite satisfactorily. From my observation much of the criticism directed toward them are ironically due to their affordable cost. The attitude seems to be the Double Impacts can’t be that good, after all they only cost 3000.00 dollars. It isn’t possible to get true High End sound at that price point.
This thread has revealed that quite a few DI owner’s prior speakers were significantly more expensive yet outperformed by the DI on sonic merit
Charles |
Hi Jetter,
I don't have any reason to suspect that you are a DI "basher". My only response to you was concerning the Dynamo tube amplifiers and even that is just us sharing personal impressions. There was a thread started by gon member Inna dismissive of the Double Impact seemingly due to low cost and lack of suitable status and prestige . To the best of my knowledge he has not listened to the speakers. A number of posters on that thread apparently had a similar attitude.
Charles |
Hi Kenny,
I'd be interested in hearing the Double Impact SE version due to my very favorable encounter with the "standard" DI (+300 dollar upgrade package) in Tom's system 2 weeks ago. With different cabinet, drivers and crossover components it does raise the curiosity level for me.
Charles |
Hi Teajay,
You are clearly happy with the Triode Labs 2A3 SET and the Aric KT 88 SEP amplifiers. How do your Pass Labs XA 60.8 mono blocks sound driving the Ulfberths compared to these two?
Charles |
Teajay,
Thank you for your reply regarding the listening impressions of these three fine amplifiers. The Pass Labs XA series of amplifiers are upper tier solid state amplifiers and thus are a very creditable reference point. As you rightly observe, it's a matter of individual taste. Wow, you have or had the First Watt S.I.T. 2 ? You've certainly owned some excellent power amplifiers which fortifies one's perspective.
Charles |
Hi Greg,
Congratulations on getting the Double Impacts (DI) . It truly makes me happy when a fellow music lover expresses such newfound joy and sheer satisfaction. When you get down to the grass roots of it audio products are just a means or conduit to get us closer to the music we love to listen to, really that’s it.
As you’ve come to realize through your own experiences not every component or speaker has this capability, some are better than others. You use terms such as "sing" and "beautiful " to describe what the DIs have brought to your system and that’s a wonderful discovery.
Getting the musicality you describe along with the high resolution isn’t a given. The lack of genuine musicality is a barrier to emotionally being able to connect and deepen the all important music involvement factor while listening. Without It will seem as though you’re detached and merely observing the music rather than being a part of the experience.
The Double Impacts have eliminated the restrictive barrier you previously had in your system. Now the music "sings" and the entire listening experience is indeed "beautiful "😊. This is a fantastic new level and there’s no retreating backwards for you.
The improved resolution provided by the Double Impacts do allow you to hear any change in the signal chain (source,amplification, cables, racks,footers etc.). All this for "only" 3000.00 dollars? Who would have thunk it? 😊 I’m very happy for you.
Charles |
Hi Sbayne,
I assume that you were responding to jcarcopo’s comments, he did write "IMHO" so I personally don’t interpret his comments as an universal proclamation to be adhered to by the masses.
I do however agree with your view of over generalization regarding the various types of amplifiers. Due to many variables involved it is not possible to declare any particular topology the "best". No argument. The most one could say is that in their individual circumstance a specific amplifier was superior for them and leave it at that.
By the way I believe that your former Shindo Sinhonia would sound absolutely beautiful with your Double Impact monitors (but not declaring universally the best) 😊.
Charles
|
Hi Greg,
When I discuss the listening impressions of audio products and what is a mandatory requirement for me is the tone/timbre quality and "emotional" involvement/engagement /connectivity. You and your wife’s reaction to the Double Impact’s reproduction of music is exactly what I mean.
If the music doesn’t move you when listening to your system, something is subpar in your signal chain. Changing your speakers to the Double Impacts very convincingly resolved your system’s weak link. Good job Greg 😊
Charles |
Hi Tom (Mac48025),
I'm happy for you, it sure seems as though the Aric KT 88 SEP amplifier is going to be an excellent choice with your Double Impacts. I'm very interested to see what you think of them. If you don't mind I'll invite myself over to hear this pairing 😊😊.
Charles |
Hi Grey9hound, obviously you have a fantastic speaker and amplifier match for your needs, congratulations. An amplifier shoot-out I would love to hear driving the Double Impacts based on feedback on this thread.
Rogue Audio ST 100.
Line Magnetic 508ia.
Aric Audio KT 88.
Coincident Frankenstein MK II (based on my recent listening encounter) .
This would be quite the listening experience in my opinion.
Charles |
Hi jadedavid,
Does your Frankenstein MK II have 4 and 8 ohm speaker taps? If so which are you using? My Frankenstein MK II is an earlier model which had 8 and 16 ohm taps. As Mac wrote they were exceptionally good with his DIs using the amplifier 8 ohm tap.
If you do have a 4 ohm tap how does it compare to the 8 ohm tap?
Lak,
I can't imagine that you would have any issues at all using your Allnic 300b SET with the Double Impacts. In fact I strongly suspect that this pairing will sing as this is an easy speaker load. This has been confirmed numerous times on this lengthy thread. Your Allnic SET isa very high quality amplifier.
Charles |
Jadedavid,
I have the earliest MK II version (2009) with the stainless steel chassis. Coincident switched to the 4/8 ohm speaker taps about 3 or 4 years ago. As for the first stage coupling capacitor I went with the Jupiter copper foil instead of the V Cap. You can not go wrong with either choice.
In my opinion you have an excellent audio system foundation with your Frankenstein and Double Impact combination. This is a very good speaker.
Charles |
Corelli is right and I base this on my Double Impact listening experiences. These speakers are resolving and relatively uncolored so there’s very little editorializing taking place. You will hear the intrinsic sonic character of the amplifier in use.
If you like the McIntosh sound the Double Impacts won’t alter it. I certainly felt that the innate character of my Coincident Frankenstein was well preserved when mated to these speakers. Very natural/organic,live/palpable aura and commendable emotional involvement conveyed.
This is why people are reporting positive results with such a wide range of amplifiers with this speaker. If you like a given amplifier the DI isn’t going to change that. This speaker is very good at revealing the differences of amplifiers during direct comparison sessions.
Charles |
Hi lak,
That’s such a tough question to answer. Nothing short of a listening session will settle this. So much of course depends on what type of sound you want, simple to say but so true.
The reality is some listeners could hear both speakers and prefer yours, conversely others would prefer the Double Impacts. I’ve heard the Double Impacts and IMO they are very good. They will definitely reflect the chosen audio signal chain and room setup.
Charles |
Hi Bill (Grannyring),
What's your impression of the Double Impacts driven by the Rogue ST 100 in grey9hound's systemm? Did you bring your own familiar recordings?
Charles |
Reading teajay’s critique of McIntosh the last impression that I would perceive is that he’s a "hater". He was genuinely describing his listening experience with this brand. Interestingly I share very similar impressions having heard all McIntosh systems on several occasions.
Do I "hate" their products? Of course not! I simply prefer other alternatives more. We all listen to components/speakers and choose what we like best. Taste is all over the sonic map as one would expect given the pure subjective nature of it all.
There is no reason to be thin skinned in this wonderful endeavor, trust your ears and go where they lead you. There’ll always be people who share your taste and those who do not. This is what makes this such a fun passion and results in the sharing of excellent insights and perspective. This thread is proof of this concept.
Gentlemen keep it up 😊
Charles
|
Hi Kenny,
Given your vast listening experiences and ownership of many terrific amplifiers past and present I’m looking forward to reading your opinion on the Lyngdorf 2170. Curious to see how it compares and contrasts with the Aric 2A3 SET, LTA ZOTL 40 and the First Watt S.I.T.push pull amplifiers. Should be much fun for certain.
Charles |
Hi Jacarcopo,
Thanks for taking the time to post pictures of your audio system. I can easily imagine the beautiful sound of music that surely fills your listening space. Your Art Audio amplifier is a visual treat.
Charles |
