Tekton Double Impacts
Great posts today. Glad you are keeping in touch with our thread Eric. I bought my DI's back early this year and verified I have an older crossover version. So I do have interest in updating these at some time. Maybe not to the degree/parts quality that Bill has done but I would like to incorporate the latest changes to this crossover. Eric, it was good to hear you say what I suspected regarding the swapping of alpha for beta woofers. Namely, the larger magnets afford more efficiency/heft in mid bass response at the expense of deep bass extension. That is what I would have expected with my limited knowledge on speaker design basics. (I recall someone stating there was "deeper" bass response with the betas. I suspect they meant "more" bass in reality.) Bill, I have read your post multiple times and looked at all your pics. Your efforts here are really appreciated and I see myself taking on this project in steps. Will start with the easy part--the woofer crossover and I will probably swap out the woofers. In my room my DI's are very clean and a little more warmth in the midbass may be welcome. I anticipate a pair of subs in the future so deep bass extension in not a concern. I clearly will have questions for you in the future and thank you for any guidance you might provide. |
@tektondesign Eric, Thanks for the advice. I know tweeter unsoldering/soldering can be unforgiving work. I will give this careful thought before changing a speaker I'm very happy with as is. What would be really helpful is if you might describe the differences you heard as the crossover evolved. My unit was produced around 3/2017. How would you compare the sound to a current production DI? As you and many of us have said their are clearly subjective differences and we all have our preferences. So I'm more interested in the objective differences. Would be a shame to do all that work only to realize I might be in the minority that preferred the original crossover! Thanks Eric. |
@grannyring Hi Bill, Hoping you might answer a couple of questions. 1)As I look at your diagram, am I correct in saying the 68uf cap is only active in the 6.5" midrange crossover? If so, I assume then a separate crossover board could be made for the tweeter and midrange crossovers? 2)Assuming a COMPACT layout with the axis of the inductors at 90 degrees to each other, do you think placing this within the midrange/tweeter cabinet will audibly degrade the tuning of that box?? I really want to keep the crossovers within the speaker. 3)I really do not want to damage the tweeters. If I place a small needlnose on the proximal portion of the tweeter tabs as a heat sink, I was hoping that would give me a bit of a safety margin. Do you think female disconnect terminals are a bad idea? I've used these with ProGold treatment in the past without problems. Thanks for the help Bill. |
Bill, I was listening last night until the late hours (gotta love having a dedicated room. My wife says that was the main reason we built this house 3 yrs ago!). In spite of my electrolytic caps, etc. I still had a big smile on my face. My enthusiasm for this speaker has not waned one bit. It does so much right and so little wrong it is tough to beat. I can only imagine how yours are sounding with all the upgrades. Really glad you are enjoying them so much. Thanks again for sharing your crossover upgrade. I do expect I will venture down that road after a long period of pondering the options (my norm). P.S. I chuckled when you admitted to cranking things up a bit. I can go one better (or worse)--I'll admit to hauling out some of my Telarc recordings not of music, but rather T. Rex invading my audio room. Holy crap. The DI's didn't flinch. |
cliff, I agree with mac. You will just have to try your electronics and decide. I have listened to both SS and tubes. I enjoy both for different reasons. We've all said it over and over--the DI's will let you hear the sonic signature of your electronics. Avoid the temptation to let others decide for you what is best. But you can benefit from great insight and experience from this thread. I wouldn't begin to predict the behavior of your interesting room other than to say the DI's have a good chance of performing well. Modest room treatment may afford significant improvements as well. (If you want some DIY info here I can help.) Hope all had an enjoyable and thankful Thanksgiving. |
@listening99 Several months back I upgraded my electronics from Marantz Reference 15s2 series to the Marantz Ruby CD/Integrated. I was a bit reluctant only because the output of this unit is Class D, Ncore. That concern was quickly put to rest. What I heard with the new combo was an even more expansive soundstage, better clarity and detail, a bit better low end impact all while maintaining that smooth sound Marantz is known for. While this may be a bit above budget, I think it's a great unit. There are many different opinions on what amps sound "best" with the DI's (or Moabs) but I really gets down to personal taste/what music you like. For me, I really enjoy the clarity and power of Class D--especially in the way Marantz has implemented this output stage. |
mac, How are things with your new 300b? Do you know what output transformers he used in your build? You've listened to a number of amps. What does the 300b bring to the table that your other amps did not? Do you feel, driving the DI's, there are some types of music in your collection where you are less impressed? |
Exciting news for many of you. Tom, I'm glad you have found your amp for the DI's. Appreciate the nice review of what the amp is capable of in your system. With the type of music you most enjoy I can see where a 300b based amp is a great choice. While I really enjoy both my current amps, I still have an interest in 300b SE amps. Not at all because I feel wanting with my current gear, but rather because all amps bring a different set of strengths and it's fun to rotate in a different amp now and again depending on what CD's I'm spinning. I seem to keep looking at the Audio Note Kit 300b/10th anniversary edition with it's C core transformers. It's on sale right now for just under $3000 and seems crammed full of high quality components. Honestly I'd love to put one together. No doubt the nostalgia of it all--bringing me back to the Dynaco/Hafler kits of my youth! (What do you think Charles?) On the other hand, Aric has treated you great and I certainly applaud his offer! David, looking for ward to your review of the SE's! Wonder how these would stack up to Bill's revamped DI's. Lots of fun. |
Hi Charles, Thanks for the words of encouragement. I should shoot Eric an email. I certainly like to patronize someone who cares about their work. One thing I like about both Aric and Audio Note is the ability to customize your gear from the get go. For example, while I favor an integrated, I have no need for an input selector. More cost and potentially worse sound. One input is just fine. Thanks again for your contributions to this thread. Tom, you won't regret the metallic gray. I get the temptation of yellow. But I'll save that for the sports car I'll never own. (I like to say that the Civic Si's I owned have payed for much of my audio gear.) |
Keeping in mind the DI's and Moabs are very efficient speakers, I can't imagine needing more wattage than what I have (around 150 wpc into 4 ohms). Now I am sure someone out there may be using a high powered class D amp, but for the sake of your ears I urge caution. The quality and voicing of the amp are going to be far more important than the wattage in almost every case. So while they can handle that wattage they surely do not need that wattage. Our friend almarg can answer any questions on amplifier gain. There are a number of cool class D modules/kits out there that I have seen. I just wonder if a passive pre might result in sound that is "too clean" or sterile. Maybe a simple tubed pre. So many options! |
@grannyring Bill, did you ever sort out the values of the inductors on your version of the DI? Mine is an earlier run so if I ever get around to upgrading my crossover it would be great to have that info. OBTW, biking in Michigan has come to a close. The mileage/post battle wasn't even close. DI posts-4000 Bike mileage-2525 |
Bill, keep posting. I conceded (at least to myself) some time ago. I've really appreciated all your posts and the great info you have placed on this thread. Charles, to be honest, come the end of the season, I'm ready for a change. I bought a pair of cross country skis 2 years ago and find this a great winter sport. Easy on the joints, lots of fresh air and wildlife. Love it. And heck, Michigan winters and tubes were meant for each other! Greg, sounds like biker heaven. I enjoyed a trip to Yosemite and Northern California a number of years ago. Very memorable trip indeed. We drove into Yosemite one evening in April. Snowed 13" that night and we were "trapped" in the park. Next morning, in full sun and blue sky, the trees were heavy with snow. Magnificent. Just magnificent. David, you overestimate my biking resolve! |
Tom, looks like Aric is has done a major rebuild on your amp. You a going to be a very happy camper once you get all this new gear assembled and broken in. Like the substantial look of the amp. I really enjoy the fact this thread has served as such a great resource on associated gear to drive our DI's. More importantly, it's nice that small businesses like Aric's have benefited. People like this who actually care and have a "can do" attitiude are becoming a rare commodity in our world of "bigger is better." |
David, my last bike purchase was also a bit unconventional. I ride a Bacchetta carbon fiber recumbent. But no dealer in Michigan carries this model. (I was able to test ride an aluminum model with the same frame geometry so I knew it to be a good fit) So I spoke to the owner in Florida and he put together a model with all the equipment I specified. He then put this in a really BIG box and shipped it to Michigan. The only issue was the rear derailleur--an issue with that model. So they exchanged it for a sram xo affair. A $100 upgrade. Now that's service! (Does this sound a bit like Aric Audio?) And 15,000 miles later, much like my DI's, it was money very well spent. So you're right David, interesting parallels between these hobbies. |
Very cool bikes guys. As long as we're sharing pics, here you go: https://www.bacchettabikes.com/bike/carbon-aero-3-0-700c/ |
@drlisz Glad you like your new SE's. Congrats. I suspect you will have many years of enjoyment from them. Your comments parallel many others who have experienced this speaker. While we all have different hearing, preferences, we should be able to discern and agree on some issues when we compare on speaker to another. I would say your comments are right in line with what I and other Tekton owners have experienced. Now more fun begins as you tinker with the associated equipment in your system. You can tune to taste as the SE's are fundamentally a very neutral speaker. Not sure what your current source is, but yes, you will enjoy what a high quality CD player will bring to the table. |
david, Bacchetta gives you a choice of three colors-blue, then there's blue, and the last choice is blue. I went with blue. Good thing it is a really cool blue! Interesting you mention the Tekton meet. I was thinking the very same thing earlier today! What about Chicago this summer? I'll nominate brother teajay. After all, we all want to hear the Ulfs, right? |
David, Gotta love your 4 yr. old son. Thinkin ahead. What a hoot. Reminds me of a trip to Wisconsin about 12 yrs ago with my daughter. A week long trip in Dorr County. Riding into Green Bay it had to be 110 degrees on the asphalt. Only time I've had heat exhaustion. Took 6 liters of fluid to get me right. The next day a rain of Biblical proportion came down down and frankly we really didn't care. Rain was better than heat. Our tandem recumbent had to gain an extra 8# from fluid retention. Your son would of thought that soooo cooool in his rainproof fortress! Alright , time to get on track. The system is toasty warm. Time for the DI's to recreate a performance of The Nutcracker, Semyon Bychkov and the Berliner Philharmoniker. OBTW, Bychkov conducted the Grand Rapids Symphony Orchestra early in his career--my hometown. |
I've had the pleasure of hearing The Nutcracker performed many times over the years. Didn't work out this year. That is, right up until tonight. The DI's brought the performance home big time. I don't know about you guys, but there are times when listening at home I feel like I'm not missing out on much (at least sonically). |
Tom, I posted, on a separate thread, the exact thing you're asking. We had a power outage this past summer. I could see my 120 gallon aquarium was not going to do well (stocked with fancy goldfish from Dandy Orandas--right in your neck of the woods Tom). So off I went to Menards very early Saturday. While I could have gotten by with a very small generator, all they had left was a nearly 2000 watt Generac. Later that evening, via a single 12g extension cord direct to my second system, I was floored by how good that system sounded. I listened all that evening for hours amazed by what I was hearing. I can only surmise it was the effect of clean power. It amazed me. |
Aric, thanks for the heads up on generator use! I will say when I used this it was the only thing powered by the generator and it was heavily filtered by a very effective spike suppressor (SurgeX unit). In any event, based on your expert advice, I wouldn't dare to use it again even if it did sound good! Maybe we are headed towards batteries! brotw, I suspect after the New Year I will bring in a pair of Hsu ULS subs. These are sealed systems that use a 15" driver. The finish looks to match the basic satin black on my DI's. They appear to very effectively cover the lowest octave of music. As I've said, I just don't get that "pressure lock" in my room with my speaker placement (DI's are out 1/3rd into the room from front wall. When music contains deep fundamentals, I'll be the first to admit I find that kind of power captivating. Just looking to reproduce what I've heard live. Anyone been to St. Paul's Cathedral in London? Awesome place! |
Agreed Charles. I've listened with a few tube watts to a couple hundred SS watts. The DI's have no "preference" for what drives them. There has been a huge variation in upstream equipment posted on this thread and most everyone has agreed the DI's reproduce clearly what is being fed to them. For me amp choice is dictated by what I want to listen to. There are some things tube SE designs will do what other amps don't. And there is some music where I crave the firm control SS offers. No different than pairing wine to your dinner entree. I am at a loss to say exactly what accounted for nitrobobs experience. It certainly does not bother or offend me. But I have to say what he heard I have not. I have never heard issues with a nasal quality, driver integration, or power handling for what it's worth. Any of these issues would have compelled me to ship these back as well. I can only surmise, as was mentioned, you have to look at system synergy. Furthermore, room acoustics can't be ignored. Lastly, and I think this is a big one, is that we all have differences in our hearing. If we all compared our audiograms, our ears would all measure differently. Sometimes dramatically. Is it any wonder we have different preferences? (and there are more complex reasons for our innate preferences beyond simple audiograms--but I'll pass on that discussion for now.) |
Tom, do you understand the physics behind the footers you are using? Does this dissipate cabinet vibrations? I've traditionally been avoided less than solid interfaces to the floor. But it might make sense, especially on concrete, if they function as an energy drain. $1200 is a bit of an investment--wonder how this compares in magnitude to a crossover upgrade. David, the Hsu subs in terms of value and performance seem to be in the same camp as the DI's. I suspect they will integrate well. I do wonder about leaving the ports open vs. foam plugs. Suspect I will leave them open but we shall see. Will probably order in a few weeks. All the talk this week has prompted me to order a decibel meter! On a side note I highly recommend noise cancelling headphones. I rarely use them for music but use them all the time for long trips (especially flights), and around power tools, lawnmowers, you name it. |
Count me in on wishing all my friends here on this thread a Blessed Christmas. I've said more than once it's given me much pleasure to exchange different ideas on this thread and learn from each others experiences. Also it's been great getting to know each others interests outside of the audio world that we all so enjoy. Tom, that would make sense with your footers. Like you, my audio room has a concrete foundation. Hard to drain energy into concrete! As long as these footers limit lateral movement of the speaker, I would be interested at some point. Regarding subs, I looked at the Tekton subs. Very big and heavy, limited info, ? specs makes the Hsu subs an easy pick. Compact, many great reviews, and very well documented specs make me very confident these would take me down to just under 20Hz flat. To be very clear, I do not want more bass out of my DI's, I want flat extension into the lowest octave. As I write this, I am listening to "An English Christmas" recorded in Westminster Cathedral (a great Cd in quality and performance, especially given it was a DDD/1986). I remember my old Mirage M-5si's, with two little 6.5" woofers, achieved greater "room lock" than any speaker I have owned (the Rotel 990 amp/Audioquest midnight did their part). Having had the great pleasure of touring many of England's great cathedrals and hearing a few of their organs and choirs, it's an experience not easily forgotten. So when I listen to these great choirs, brass, and organ I want to feel those big pipes that I know are part of the performance. |
captmobley, Suggest you hold on to your K-horns and just order up the DI's. You'll never know if it's for you until heard with your equipment in YOUR room. Some will disagree, but for me an audition will take you just so far given the variables involved. If you like the Pendragons, that is encouraging. The DI's will take you to another level. So what performance was most memorable on your recent tour? |
brotw, nice post on controlling cabinet resonance--takes some of the mystery out of how these devices work. As many of these devices are rather expensive, does anyone have any thoughts on the more cost effective products out there or any DIY products? As stated, the DI's have rather lively cabinets. I have my pair on steel outriggers with hard rubber footers on vinyl planks over concrete. While this is a very stable arrangement, I suspect it does little to drain xs energy from the cabinet. What about multiple sorbothane pucks under the cabinet with optimal compression as a way to drain cabinet energy while still keeping the stability of the outriggers? Or, what about sorbothane sheets or even vinyl floor tiles inside the cabinet? |
Here's what I don't understand. With a roller block system, I envision that when the woofers are in action, there is an opposite reaction that results in the cabinet moving in the horizontal plane in the opposite direction. And then I ask, wouldn't that decrease bass impact? And what about the shorter wavelengths of the tweeters--wouldn't that smear detail as the point of wave launch is always moving? |
It might be good to just enjoy your new speakers for a while with your current gear and then sort out what your sonic priorities are. If you have a number of CD's, yes, you can do better than your oppo bdp 103. That's a nice all around player but a dedicated CD/SACD player will bring a very positive improvement. Which one will depend on what you are looking for/musical taste. It's easy for us all to recommend the gear we own as it makes music the way WE each prefer. So think it over and get back with some specifics on what you are after. |
That's how I'm kind of seeing it Tom. Black over blah. Kind of like a black hole. After all, these are absorbers. My diffusers are white. Makes sense, right? Glad the new pre afforded the synergy you were looking for. That's cucial as we all know. Selling the MZ made sense in my opinion. We all have to keep the cash flow going in our hobby! Will keep you updated on the subs. |
Tom, Glad to hear you are enjoying your new gear. Do they have a pic of your new pre on Aric's site? Do you plan on holding on to your LTA preamp? I agree with you, it's nice to have more than one amp to roll in and out. For large scale works, I do still enjoy my Marantz Reference integrated the best. I also really enjoy my PrimaLuna. This is a very versatile amp indeed. Triode vs. Ultralinear switching on the fly. And the choice of output tubes is remarkable. With 8 power tubes it could, however, get $$$. For me, I'm enjoying the stock el34b tubes for now. (I do envy you and Charles a bit here. I'd rather but two really expensive 300b tubes than 8 of whatever else!) David, Very interested in your new purchase. That looks like a very nice integrated. I think I'll let you work through all the power tube options first. Once you have it all sorted out, I may pick up some new tubes for my integrated. Ordered up a pair of Hsu ULS-15 Mk2 subs tonight. (You guys can't have all the fun.) I am confident, based on the prior subs I had in this room, I should have the bottom octave extension I want. They are in satin black, and ought to match the DI's very well. Lastly, I am updating some room treatments. Check out Audimute. Nice products at a good price. Now the only problem is what color fabric. I looked at over 40 fabric swatches. Good grief, this can drive you nuts. So do I try to match wall color and have the panels fade into the background, or go with DI/man cave black and tie it all in what's important in the room? One thing for sure.......I won't be asking my wife! |
It would be nice if Eric would take 10 minutes to post some info on the various reincarnations of the DI crossover. Would probably save him a lot of time/calls in the long run. I imagine that the latest version may or may not be the ticket for any given individual's system/room/ears. But it would be really nice to hear Eric's take on what each version accomplished in a relative sense. For now I'm sitting tight on crossover changes but it's still on my radar. @grannyring Bill, very sorry to hear you won't be posting here sharing your technical expertise. That is a real loss. Please reconsider! Subs should be arriving today. Looking forward to hearing (but not lifting) them. |
I'm curious on getting different opinions on room treatments that DI/SE owners have found effective. My current dedicated room is about 21x14.5x9. When I designed this room I tried to use ratios that were favorable. It has double thickness drywall, vinyl plank flooring over concrete, with carpet over that in the rear half of the room. The front wall has MDF rectangular columns to help break up and diffract sound waves. The rear wall has DIY 3.5" rockwool absorbers over most of that wall. The room to my ear is on the bright side with a bit of slap echo. As I do not find the DI's bright, I don't mind a room on the "live" side. But I suspect some side wall treatment is in order. The other issue is bass response. I received my Hsu sealed subs. They came with a nice test disc. This was an eye opener. While I knew the DI's had tight bass in my room, testing really reinforced my impression. There was a marked null at 40-50hz, and then better output to 30hz (the tuning frequency of the port), with little below that. I have pretty much an equilateral triangle with speakers/chair. Moving this all out further into the room placed my listening spot closer the rear wall, and with the subs in the front corners, I did clearly improve the null. (40hz still a bit down in response) Response now in the room has good extension to 20hz and at least by ear fairly smooth up to 80-100hz where there is a bit of a peak. So in an effort to improve the acoustics of my room I've been reading all kinds of posts/articles--- and advice is all over the place. Some say clearly to treat first reflection points, others say this will close down the sound stage (which I really would not desire). ? use diffusion instead on side walls a combination of diffraction/absorption. Bass traps to smooth the 80hz peak (and how the heck do bass traps "know" I only want to dampen at 80hz, not 40hz??). I am limited as only one corner is available for traps (subs in front two, door in the other). I know in the end I'll have to probably just try things. Just hoping to avoid costly mistakes. Thanks guys. |
