It seems that fetguy is just stirring it up a bit to have some fun. I can tell though that those types of comments are what I encountered when I decided to venture into the world of SET amplification. Yep, we’ll meaning yet condescending in nature.
Of course the irony is that the SET provided the most open, transparent and nuanced sound I’d ever experienced up to that point. It was another real life illustration of how stereotypical warnings can be so utterly wrong. We live and we learn.
This thread has demostrated quite convincingly the Double Impacts are sucessful with SS or tubes, high and low power. Exceptional flexibility for all potential users.
When teajay (Terry) writes about the superb results he has heard using low powered SET amplifiers (knowing that he’s used the powerful Pass Labs amplifiers with these speakers) it is very compelling. He appears to be getting the best sound from his system he’s ever heard (if I’m reading him correctly) with the Triode Labs 2A3 SET.
Charles |
Kenny,
I’m impressed with the various amplifiers you’ve heard with the Double Impacts. I suspect that your First Watt S.I.T. is quite a special SS amplifier either as stereo chassis or mono blocks (S.I.T.1). No doubt that you are having much fun 😊
Charles |
Hi Willgolf,
Now that is one interesting comparison. A 2 way monitor vs the large floor standing full range 3 way Double Impacts. This will be a fun direct comparison to read about. Should be very insightful as the design parameters are so different.
Good luck,
Charles |
Hi Terry,
Yes I eagerly await your Ulfberths review and direct comparison with the Double Impacts. I'm very curious to learn if the Ulfberths are just more hifi spectacular or are they genuinely superior in the more important realm of music reproduction and emotional involvement. I have full confidence that you'll sort this out 😊
Charles |
Hi Teajay,
What you’ve written on the distinct sonic differences between good quality SS and good quality SET is virtually a mirror image of my amplifier progression and accumulative listening experiences. Musical flow, liquidity, tone, timbre, overtones/harmonics, presence (in the performance venue) 3D presentation, emotional connectivity were superior with a high quality SET amplifier.
One undeniable truth is that people do hear differently and are drawn to various sonic and musical cues. No type of amplifier topology "does it all perfectly " so individuals pick and choose what best suits their own needs. Given this reality I understand why some listeners will prefer a SS amplifier.
Even with an easy to drive speaker such as the Double Impact some will simply prefer to go the SS amplifier route. Your offer to Bullitt to try the Cyber 2A3 SET is a very kind one. Direct comparison with the Odyssey is the true test to make a decision as their own characteristics will be very aopparent.
I could be wrong (certainly) but I get the sense that Bullitt has decided that for his current system and needs that SS and specifically the Odyssey amp is the better match for him. I believe that he will be happy with this choice.
For me (and you Terry) SET if implemented properly has unique and unmatched musical and sonic capabilities. I do recognize that this conclusion won’t be true for every listener. This diversion into discussing amplifier topologies and preference has been quite interesting.
Charles |
As someone who doesn't own the Double Impacts I have posted numerous times here. I find this speaker rather fascinating for its reported sound quality, efficiency and flexibility at such an obtainable price for most people.
I'd like to hear the Martin Logan speaker system mentioned by audioman58. My natural inclination is nearly always toward the simpler straight forward approach if given the choice. I really appreciate this simplicity of the Double Impact vs what seems a more complicated Martin Logan alternative.
Of course the verdict relies on actual listening to both which audioman58 has done (and granted it's one man's opinion). From the many comments of owners posted here I haven't gotten the impression that lower volume detail is a problem.
Charles |
Bill (Grannyring),
You made many excellent points and the truth is that there is no universal "best" audio component, rather there's "best" for an individual in specific circumstances. I don't believe that teajay was declaring an all knowing proclamation for everyone to adhere to. He was only sharing his own vast experiences and where they have led him. Well, that’s my inference anyway 😊
Bill if your current SS amplifier gives you what SET offers and, I say great for you and congratulations, I mean that. I've yet to find the pure tone,presence factor and emotional engagement in a SS amplifier as I've heard with excellent SET. Again, this is just my personal experience and has nothing to do with yours. I don't doubt your judgement or impressions at all my friend.
Charles |
Corelli,
Yes the talent and skill of the speaker designer/builder is the most impactful variable. No question though that the quality of parts are a major factor. This is why the Double Impact SE is intriguing. Same design with higher grade Scanspeak drivers and crossover components. I wonder what is the performance gap between the two versions.
Presumably any differences heard would be attributed to the different parts used.
Charles |
Hi Ipretiring, Is there a particular SET amplifier you have in mind? I haven’t heard the Dynamo MK II but sources I trust say that it is a "very" good sounding amplifier. It uses the el 34 output tube in a SEP (SINGLE ENDED PENTODE) as opposed to a SET (which uses directly heated triodes, 2A3, 300b, 45, 845 etc.). I do have a bias toward DHT and believe they offer the musicality is its purest and most natural presentation.
However non DHT pentode/tetrode tubes in the hands of talented builders with good ears can and will sound terrific! A good quality DHT SET is going to cost more money with rare exception. It depends on your budget limits. The DIs certainly seem to be a true conduit and reveal what comes before them in the signal chain. If you are after the upmost in terms of transparency, tone and nuance and have the budget I believe that you’d be very pleased with DHT SET. For example the Triode Labs 2A3 SET mentioned here several times by teajay would be an excellent option to consider. I use the Coincident Frankenstein MK II 300b SET which has served me exceedingly well x 8 years. You have many fine choices with the DIs. Charles |
Hello Ipretiring, Thank you for your kind comments. I understand your dilemma, budget, value and high sound quality being the variables. I’m a big believer/advocate for opting for good output transformers (OPT) as they’re so vital a factor toward high level sound quality.
If you don’t want to get an upgrade OPT I suspect the base OPT in the Triode Labs is a very decent part. I can’t imagine they use an inferior one given its importance. You have chosen excellent speakers so I’d urge you to get the best amplifier you can "comfortably" afford. In the long run this always works out best IMHO.
I place such value
on OPT and power supplies that I’d wait and save more money if needed to get the better quality choices, obviously we’re all different in our approaches. Good luck to you. Charles |
Hi Mikirob,
I always have appreciated your listening impressions and insight. It seems we listen to music in the same manner and with very similar priorities. I'm not at all surprised that the Dynamo responds so noticeably to tube rolling. The very good amplifiers always seem to do so.
I am surprised that you say the LTA preamp offers only "slightly" better improvement vs the Dynamo's volume control. I guess I assumed a wider performance gap between them. It appears that the Dynamo is especially good for a 1500.00 amplifier.
If you ever hear the Double Impacts I'd love to know your opinion of them. Charles |
In my experience the vast majority of tube push pull amplifiers are class AB circuits. There are a handful that are pure class A.
Lancelock, Synergy is definitely a factor in many circumstances. In my case using the same brand line stage and power amplifier I'm convinced makes a difference for the better. Charles |
Mikirob, Thanks for inserting the Micro ZOTL and listening again. I only raised the question based on teajay's very positive impressions. I respect his reviewing skills/experience. If he says something sounds exceptionally good I take him at his word. With rare exceptions I find that high quality active line stages do in fact improve the sound quality in most audio systems. Charles |
LP I hope it all works out well for you and your family. I never take good health and enjoying listening to music for granted. Both are a blessing. Charles |
Hi Al,
Excellent comments and explanation on this topic. This is a classic example of how someone would erroneously place the blame of lack of amplifier power when in fact the culprit is a lack of gain in the audio system. This is a distinction I've seen others confused before.
Charles |
+1 teajay, count me as interested/curious as well. If this sub 1000.00 dollar amplifier is of good quality it'd be quite a low cost mate for the Double Impacts. Richard Austen is in my opinion a very good and honest reviewer and is familiar with many High quality tube power amplifiers. I believe that he's a good reference point.
Charles |
Mac,
"Absolutely stellar" With results that spectacular from the 1 watt if makes me wonder if you need a power amplifier 😊. Many amplifiers could possibly be a step backwards from where you are. High power seems superfluous with the Double Impacts given how easily they’re driven.
Charles |
Hello Bill,
Thanks for taking the time to share your initial listening impressions. It seems that this is a very well thought out and executed product. Very good news to know a sub 1K dollar low power tube amplifier offers such high quality sound.
I’m not surprised that the sound improved further with the addition of a good quality active preamplifier, that makes plenty of sense to me. It would be very illuminating to compare this amplifier to the Cyber 2A3 SET that teajay finds exceptionally good sounding at its price point.
The Double Impacts are opening the door wide open to the beautiful sound quality of the lower power amplifier genre. Genuinely excellent sound for a quite affordable cost of amplifier + speaker.
Charles |
The 700 watt Nord class D amplifier directly compared to the 1 watt Micro /MZ2-S. The epitome of different philosophies and design, this would be interesting and informative. The Double Impacts would bare all about both. I think that the 1 watt contender is a very special gem based on this thread’s feedback.
Charles |
Hi Kenny,
What did you think of the Devialant and Magico Q3 pairing? Ive heard both of these but not mated together as you have.
Charles |
Hi Kenny,
Thanks for your very insightful comments. You certainly have much direct listening experience with quite a lot of high quality components and speakers. Your impression of the Magico sound concur with mine. Impressive in the Hifi realm but for me they just lack expressing the emotion, communication and humanity inherent in good music.IMO there isn’t soul or breath of life presentation which I find mandatory. for music listening. I do acknowledge that some consider Magico the pinnacle of speaker design. To each their own.
Charles |
Hi Mac,
Just let me know when the time is good for you. I'll be back in Michigan early next week.
Charles |
What is the law of physics and "facts" that proclaim that the High power transistor amplifier will sound superior to the low power tube amplifier? There is no such law or fact. What is true is each genre of amplifier has its strengths and weaknesses and individual listeners ultimately choose what suits them best
Teajay clearly preferred the 3 watt 2A3 SET Triode Labs over his Pass Labs XA 60.8 amplifier. I strongly suspect that Craig and Porscheracer would opt for the big Pass Labs. Each of these fine amplifiers have unique attributes to offer and will obviously attract different groups of listeners.
I would choose as Teajay, nothing to do with physics, rather plenty to do with how we hear and interact with music,. This isn’t a right or wrong choice, it is everything about how people listen and what they key in to,.
Charles |
"Let’s get back to reality " Again the implication . I get it 😊
Charles |
The implication seems to be that because the DI can accommodate up to 400 watts this means that this is the preferred or optimal power requirement for this speaker. There is also the skepticism raised concerning the adequacy of 1 watt of power driving the DI despite the (by now) numerous testimonials by owners who attest to this outcome.
Again as I have written previously in this thread, clearly the DI is quite sucessful paired with amplifiers from one end of the power spectrum to the other. If my inference to the several posts above is misguided then I stand corrected.
Charles |
Hi Al, You posted while I was still typing 😃
But yes I picked up on that same comment regarding speaker power handling capability. As usual your point was well made. The"required" used by Craig was not factual IMO.
Charles |
Hello Corelli,
Thank you for your kind comments and I thank you for initiating this excellent thread. I want to be crystal clear, I believe that the Double Impacts can sound terrific with solid state amplifiers. My only point (and Al as well) is the significant benefits of "quality watts" be they tube or transistor. The Double Impacts affords one the opportunity to hear what high quality but low power amplifiers can do so beautifully. Not many speakers can do this with such success.
Charles |
Hi Corelli,
The feeling is mutual. What draws me to this thread is the maturity and decorum of the contributors and the many informed opinions and perspectives (yet not homogenized). It has avoided (so far) the pointless trolling and people simply looking for a fight.
The topic of discussion is a fascinating speaker in my opinion. A seemingly very high end speaker that’s quite affordable and exceptionally easy to drive (noteworthy IMO). As I’ve written before if I were not so happy with my current system I’d definitely take a chance on the Double Impacts.
This speaker or the SE version driven by the Line Magnetic 508ia or the Triode Labs 2A3 SET is very compelling . This is assuming if I were to assemble a completely different system from what I currently own. When it’s said that this speaker competes with others that are multiples of its cost I don’t believe this is hyperbole by any means.
Charles |
Given the caliber and experience of most of the posters here, those power requirement charts are nothing new and they do serve a purpose. The focus is on SPL generation which is relevant but ultimately but one factor (amongst many) when the goal is "overall " sound quality and involvement.
Am I advocating the use of under powered amplifiers? No, I just find there are a multitude of sonic/musical factors that are more crucial and satisfying. Obviously one has to decide their own comfort level in regard to volume. That will no doubt vary individually. Ideally one would want an amplifier that does it all flawlessly and this is not feasible.
Tone, texture, timbre, harmonic overtones, musical ebb and flow, nuance, inner detail, tactile flesh and blood presence. These matter more to some listeners than "how loud can it go". It will simply depend on one’s priorities. There are many paths to musical contentment.
Charles |
Hi Porscheracer,
I have no doubt that a higher powered transistor amplifier is the right choice for your satisfaction and peace of mind. You must select what is most appropriate and reassuring. I’d however be wary of citing the laws of physics to make your case. You know what you want and believe high watt solid state will get you there, go for it.
For you to write that the 1 watt LTA MZ2-S will sound "flat" is in direct contradiction to what Mac, Kenny,Lancelock , Teajay and others have reported based on actually listening. Personally I will always place more weight on one’s actual listening experiences than on the one whose’s opinion is based on theory and conjecture
I’ll concede you could hear the 1 watt MZ2-S and may not care for it (simply not to your taste) but that would not invalidate what others here have reported. My gut feeling is that it is as good as they have stated.
Charles . |
Porscheracer, Yes I see where you’re coming from and having people posting here with different perspectives is a good thing. I do accept certain foundational principles but only to a limited degree. I’ll admit that the further I’ve gone along in this endeavor the more I’ve come to rely on my ears. There’s been too many experiences where what "should have been" is defeated by what "was" the case based on listening.
I get the point of the many articles about clean amplifier power and low distortion figures etc. Based on that line of reasoning Halcro amplifiers should have been phenomenal sounding and the standard by which other amplifiers are judged. It didn’t work out that way, not by a long shot. Many variables matter in achieving superb sound quality from an amplifier.
Charles |
Hi Mac,
You raised such an interesting yet complex point, the very legitimate notion of science versus "art ". These are two serious entities that matter if one wants to create a superior quality and "sounding " audio component. Where does one end and the other begin? What percentage does science and art each contribute? One thing is certain, both aspects are required.
No question that solid engineering principles and application are mandatory for the good measurements, reliability, safety and quality of construction. I definitely believe that good engineering is a requirement for good sound as well. Yet when it comes to sound quality there’s undeniably more involved to complete the process.
For example Stereophile reviewers Art Dudley (particularly so) and Michael Fremer have raved about certain amplifiers that sound absolutely marvelous in their opinion. These amplifiers are subsequently tested by JA and obvious flaws in measured performance are inevitably exposed. What is going on here?
Is it the "art" factor that made these amplifiers sound so exceptional to the respective reviewers despite their relatively poor test bench results?
Then there are the amplifiers that test and measure in excellent fashion and yet disappoint when actually listened to.
Mac you raised a very compelling point. This is why I will just listen and judge what I hear. If we aren’t buying audio products based on how they sound reproducing music, what then is the criteria? I for one can't just rely on science and math alone. If this were the solution the perfect amplifier (or any audio product) would be available based on the proper calculated math equations. Art is a profound factor.
Charles |
Bullitt,
Keep in mind that transistors have inevitable coloration just as tubes exhibit. Granted the coloration is "different " in nature and character. One can generalize and say tubes tend toward low even order distortion i.e. warmth. Transistors gravitate toward odd order distortion i.e, lean/thinner, pick your preference, we all ultimately do.
There simply is such thing as a purely neutral audio product, everything has an innate character. For example the following are all highly regarded transistor amplifiers.
Soulution
Gryphon
Pass Labs
Constellation
Spectral
DartZeel
I’ve heard them all, each is solid state and each is clearly different.
Which of these is right? Which is the most genuinely neutral?
They sound different because they are, each has a distinct character (coloration). You can do the same with a list of highly regarded tube amplifiers. You cannot escape coloration. My amplifier has Coloration and I accept that reality.
Bullitt, you and I have made our choice as to what particular type of distortion/coloration we can live with happily.
Charles |
Shayne,
This is a high quality thread. Different perspectives stimulate dialogue. You can disagree with someone yet respect their input based on their unique experiences. That has been displayed here on more than a few occasions.
Charles |
Porscheracer,
Congratulations on acquiring the Double Impacts and please continue to post listening impressions as you fine tune your system. It will only get better with additional hours is my belief.
Bullitt,
I don't doubt for a moment that you have an open mind. We all hopefully configure our audio systems in a manner that support the ultimate goal, superb sound quality 😊
Charles |
Two excellent products based on word of mouth , the Truth and the M2Z-S. Given the "many" exceptionally positive comments on the M2Z-S it seems like this is about a sure a bet as one could probably find. There appears to be much evidence to suggest that it is a superb active line stage. It is a question of is the additional gain needed in your system.
Another option to consider the Truth with the LTA ZOTL 40 a 40 watt el 34 based amplifier. Or for very similar cost the Line Magnetic 508ia which is a 40 watt 805 tube SET with the passive Truth. Of course it depends on the total gain provided by the respective power amplifiers.
Charles |
II woul get in touch with Triode Labs and ask them how much gain does the 2A3 SET provide (knowing your current amplifier has 26 db as a reference). With the much more sensitive Tekton speaker you may be perfectly fine using the Truth.
Charles |
Hi Ipretiring,
Gain is related to volume level potential. The more sensitive your speakers (increasing db for a given output usually 1 watt@8 ohms) or sensitive the power amplifier (the lower the value in volts the more sensitive). As sensitivity increases the "need" for gain decreases as it isn't required to obtain higher volume levels. Al can explain it better 😊
Charles |
Hi Bullitt,
Your conclusion/speculation regarding the 2A3 Triode Labs amplifier and Double Impact pairing is interesting and the polar opposite of what Teajay achieved in his main/reviewing system ("best combination yet in his system "). Another poster who visited and hear Teajay’s system with this combination said that the sound was fantastic. Their comments were posted earlier in this thread.
Charles |
Hi Al,
So although the Truth has an active output stage it’s still considered a passive preamplifier due to zero gain? Is this a "buffered" component?
Charles |
No ripples Bullit just wanted you to know what others have actually heard with that specific amplifier and speaker match 😊
Charles |
Al,
I agree with you that the Truth isn't a passive in the strict sense of the term if it utilizes active circuitry.
Charles |
Enquiring minds do want to know, no argument there. It will be interesting to see your testing results Kenny. It was a pleasure speaking with you on the phone yesterday. You have a wealth of experience and knowledge my friend. You have owned and heard an array of excellent power amplifiers.
Charles |
My post beat Kenny's by 1 minute 😊 but we've made the same essential point to LP. 90% of my music listening is acoustic jazz with groups of varying numbers of musicians. The vast majority of these type of recordings are well executed and have very little (sometimes none) compression. Dynamic swings usually is 25 to 30 db and some are even 40 db. That's very good but large scale complex symphonic can certainly be more demanding.
I do quite well with an 8 watt SET amplifier driving 94 dB the sensitivity speakers with a 14 ohm load (not a trivial factor).
Charles |
Hi LP,
Keep in mind that Al’s litmus test is minimally compressed large scale symphonic music capable of peaks of 105 db at his sitting position 10 feet away. He knows the sensitivity of his speakers and then calculates the power needed to achieve this without strain or clipping.
My listening requirements are less demanding than Al’s and I can get by very happily with less power than would satisfy him. We’re both quite content with our respective audio systems. The key to success is truly determining what you ultimate objective is. Power requirements (and Listening volume levels) obviously vary amongst different individuals.
Charles |
Kenny wrote "I think I have found the Holy Grail "
Well the key point is you know what you want. This is important as there are listeners who aren’t sure of what they ultimately want. Kenny I’d say that the chances of long term success and happiness with your current audio system are exceedingly high.
You trust your ears and this is a crucial point as this allows you to choose components and speakers based on the most important criteria, how do they sound reproducing music in my home? If you can genuinely say that this is the best I’ve achieved up to now then you’re in an enviable position and that’s ideal.
There are a lot of very good choices of audio equipment available and we can’t own(or hear) them all. Once you’ve found that exceptional system synergy that yields what "you" determine is superb sound quality, stop right there and enjoy and appreciate what you have.
Charles |
Hi Sebrof,
This is a beautiful thread 😊😊
Charles |
Hi Kenny,
Thanks for the effort and time in testing your M2Z preamplifier and I'm sure that others here appreciate it as well.
Charles |
Hi Lancelock,
I find your impressions of various amplifier comparisons with and without the M2Z ZOTL particularly interesting. Your Benchmark amplifier has "vanishing " low distortion specifications. In my experience and understanding this is achieved via very generous use of NFB (negative feedback). This approach also results in a very low output impedance and conversely a high damping factor.
I’m curious how this type circuit will sound with and without the M2Z in the signal chain driving the Double Impacts and how sonically it differs from the LTA ZOTL 40. I look forward to your listening insights of these 2 very different amplifier topologies. I’m not sure if theZOTL 40 utilizes NFB and if so how much. Probably considerably less than the Benchmark given the distortion figures. I’m assuming that the ZOTL isn’t nearly as low. It would be very interesting if you had a zero NFB amplifier as a 3rd variable (SET or a First Watt). Yes,I know, easy for me to say 😊 Fun stuff.
Thanks,
Charles |
Hi Lance,
I’d also like to thank you for your listening impressions of 2 very different amplifiers. You must be happy knowing that you can enjoy excellent sound with either choice. This tells me that both amplifiers are high quality designs and well implemented. The sonic character differences you describe are what I had imagined they’d be given their respective topologies. What a special speaker to sort out the nuances so effectively.
Charles |
