Since I move between summer and winter homes I started ripping all music into JRiver some 4 years ago. Then the files can be copied onto a Crucial drive and taken to the next place with about 30 minutes of updating (and this is legal -- as long as you keep the original sources).
What I found out was that the CD rips, when upsampled to 192/24, sounded cleaner and more accurate. At first, this didn't make sense. How can you add quality to a pre-existing CD sample/bit rate?
But then a studio contact told me that there was a noise advantage in the downconversion of 192/24 files. Since then I have confirmed this with other engineers. Because there is less noise, the music acquires additional detail. JRiver can do this upsampling automatically for all files -- no matter what their original bit/sample rate is.
So now, all music is kept ripped on the computer in *.wav files. Since I use a studio DA converter (RME UCX) it speaks to a virtual mixer on the computer and offers tremendous options for connecting other devices to the RME (e.g., an Oppo Blu-ray player). Once this method is adopted, you can use any virtual tools for EQ or room correction. So use REW to measure your DIs in your room and then EQ it to your preference.
These virtual options are far more powerful than hardware preamps. JRiver allows you to insert virtual programs into its playback chain and any virtual room correction program can be so inserted. Someone produces a better room correction program? All you replace is one app.
And if you have a large record collection you can use the available DAWs (Reaper is inexpensive) to rip the record into *.wav format. Once the process is comfortable, it takes no more time than playing. And if you rip it at 96/24, you will not lose any fidelity. If the record sounds warm and "tubelike" then the *.wav file will sound the same.
This will be heresy to some.
Once you use a music editor such as JRiver however, you become addicted to the easy control and selection of files. Want to compare one singer's rendition with another? Happens immediately with the click of the mouse from your listening chair. Want to listen to a multi-CD musical? All CDs are all melded into a single folder in JRiver and no physical switching is necessary. The new JRiver 23, BTW, costs about $30.
So, I don't need or use a preamp for stereo music (multi-channel HT systems are another story and for that I use an Emotiva XMC-1). The computer speaks directly to a DAC and as long as the latter has a volume control, that is all needed. Again, the computer can control all stereo preamp functions with greater power and accuracy than can a hardware device. What's more, its future potential is limitless.
Again, heresy?
The question raised above was about source and preamps in relation to the DIs. This method allows a perfect marriage and is open-ended to any future improvements.
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David_Ten: It occurs to me that there is a major revolution taking place with the Lyngdorf 2170. This approach removes the necessity of a DAC and a Preamp and maintains the digital stream intact until the final amplified signal is converted to analogue right before the speaker terminals. Lyngdorf solved the volume control issue by having it control the power supply and that control the power output. So, as a continuation of the computer-centric approach I suggested above, this means that all signal control and processing takes place in the virtual realm. At my other place I have a 5-channel system with a computer right next to an Emotiva XMC-1 -- which is also a Linux computer. Why all the computers? One is enough. It can hold the music files, control all of the signal processing, then convert the digital signal by class D to speaker terminals . Only one box is needed and a completely open-ended design exists as regards apps and future file formats/changes. Would have gotten the Lyngdorf rather than a Nord amplifier but needed more power and was not convinced the file formats currently supported by the 2170 will be sufficient in the future. |
grannyring: Do you use an upgraded power cable to your 2170? Have been told this makes a genuine improvement with Class D amps and am getting a Nord in a week or so. Will not, btw, be buying a $3k power cord... As your post suggests, I am very, very tired of cable connections. Have 15 large boxes of cables in the garage (neatly categorized, LOL) and still have to get an additional premium cable every time a new component arrives. Did you decide on the HDMI or USB connection from your server to the Langdorf? Found with the Emotiva XMC-1 that the HDMI connection to the computer was significantly more linear than the USB one. But this might be the results of the XMC-1's architecture. Enjoyed your noise comments -- thanks. |
grannyring: thanks. another case of this thread working -- will contact Mike tomorrow. BTW, love the name... David_ten: Have been using JRiver constantly for 4 years and have a background in relational databases (what it is). It has a severe learning curve and the documentation the Help button provides is of little help. At first, learn that the app is designed not to actually hold the music files (they are put wherever you send them during the rip process) but, instead, to organize data about those files and present that data through a library format. So I have a main library for pop music, a classical library, and other, specialty libraries for specific interests such as Bernstein. Within that library, each ripped CD is held as a file folder. The folder names each track and you can customize all information as you like. The data is brought in through what is termed "metadata." When you rip a CD, the program will look to an online database and match the specific timings of the total tracks to match up with the text. It is important to make sure you select the right metadata source at this time. Also, the online connections have now gotten large enough to provide the album picture in almost all cases. In JRiver, you spend time in the Tools/Options area and in the Player/DSP one. These format and arrange for file processing. JRiver is one of the best database apps I have encountered and, at its very low price, is a no-brainer for me. THERE IS, however, a genuine learning curve. The result, however, is truly worth the effort. |
@grannyring: If you care to describe your power modifications, a number of us would be interested. Thanks. |
Grannyring:Very impressive -- must sound extraordinary. Thanks for the info. |
There's another way to look at power and the DIs. Eric specifies the power handling of the speakers at 400 watts. That's what I use to judge how large an amplifier is required. |
Useful resource for assessing file types.
Classic Sound Ltd. issued the complete Nielsen symphonies in 2015 with an interesting format -- all of the major music file types are made available in a 4-disk bluray set.
Individual SACD disks are provided for regular SACD playback. Then an additional content disk is added that offers the following downloads of the same original master in these formats:
5.1 DTS-HD MA 24/192
2.0 LPCM 24/192
Stereo DSD files
Flac files at 24/96
Wave files at 16/44.1
MP3 at 320k
SO, you can easily compare all of the popular file types on your system (and your DIs, of course) and see which you prefer. I was surprised at which type sounded the best on my system.
It's LSO/Nielsen or LSO Live and available on Amazon for only $22. These are good interpretations by a major orchestra and superbly-well recorded. Outside of the above comparison quality, the set offers, as well, a SOTA listening experience for the orchestral genre. This is the first time I have seen downloads available for SACD/Bluray content. Copies into JRiver easily.
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Mac: The power handling figure provided by Eric is not his preference; it is the result of the drivers chosen and his computation of those drivers sounding within the crossover design. It is clear that you like small tube amps and I have read and benefited from your perspective. But let's distinguish between facts and preference. Porscheracer is correct in referring to Physics and Eric's specifications are facts. |
Charles: Your comments are incorrect. Noone said one or another type amp sounded better. Reread the posts and reconsider. |
Gentlemen: Read this again: "That's what I use to judge how large an amplifier is required." There is nothing in this statement that suggests 400 watts are required for you and nothing that suggests quality is based upon 400 watts. Those inferences drawn above are incorrect. I use this method and it is common in the studio field. What you do is your business. I suggest, instead, you read Porscheracers link above. It provides specific details about power needs.
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Jeffery:
Very well done and A LOT of bass. Would have enjoyed a brief play from your Model D as a separate encore/coda. The speakers don't look excessively large at all in the room and work very well with the décor. Your microphone does a great job; am using Schoeps and Earthworks mics for pianos in my studio. Did you try out a Class D amp and, if so, what were the results? Tried out a Nord UP Stereo amp and it was disappointing, became defective in 5 days, and was returned. Wondering about Class A Pass Labs amps and their suitability for the DIs. Let's be perfectly clear here -- you really know how to fill up a room! |
333Jeffrey:
Yes, your latest YouTube has a significantly more uniform frequency distribution and I can appreciate the Flecktones examples. They are my favorite jazz/indie/bluegrass group. Keep up the good work. The Flying Hippo tells the story on bass with Wooten's incredible playing. Still waiting for you to open up on the Model D... |
jmontoya21: Enjoyed the review and thanks for posting. Have been listening to the DIs every day for the last 4 months and posted several reviews on threads after purchase. In general, thought this reviewer did a good job explaining the general nature of the transducer and agree with most of his comments. In particular, he shares the same initial reaction that almost all owners have expressed: the speaker sounds good with all musical styles and all levels of recorded quality. This alone makes the DI worthy of consideration. Think that potential buyers should review this You Tube for a straightforward explanation of the product. Don't agree with two of his minor complaints: that off-axis frequency response is poor and that they cannot be compared to $30k speakers. My set sounds fine throughout the room and in adjoining rooms. Second, would like to see a direct comparison with the Wilson Sashas to formalize any differences between $3K and $30K devices. A double blind test would be revealing. |
TO aolprodj
Where are the posts? Could not find them by searching on the Mike Wright name. If not close, which was the winner? |
This is a different perspective that I have offered on this and other threads. One of the great advantages to me of the original DIs (w upgrade) is that they contain defined speaker types that can be purchased directly on the open market. I have done this and rest comfortably knowing that any replacement part is as close as the garage. So I would not have any interest in the upgraded SE model regardless of any sonic advantages. Those Thiel owners complaining of a lack of replacement transducers on this site illustrate the innate problem with custom speakers available only from the maker.
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This is, truly, an exceptional thread and it is buoyed by the quality of the regular contributors and the revolutionary nature of the DI.
This is addressed to Grannyring and any others with exposure to both class A and class D amps. Have recently had the experience of trying out a Nord Stereo UP Class D amp on the recommendation of several on this and other threads.
This was my experience. Initially, the Nord amp sounded just like a Yamaha receiver I have -- somewhat accurate but sterile and uninteresting. As it broke in, it became better in reproducing acoustical ensembles but still not of a very high quality. After shifting over to another OpAmp, the Nord did sound OK on orchestral feeds and I was planning on keeping the component.
Then, the left channel died and the unit was returned to Colin -- who did the professional thing and refunded the entire purchase amount. So, after a week of listening to the DIs solely with a Class D amp, went back to my Emotive mono blocks that have 35 watts of class A that does, of course, cover most of the volume levels with the DIs.
Was shocked at how much better the Class A amp was in two particular areas: 1. Tone weight and 2. vocal soundstage and accuracy. Tone weight was seen in particular with instruments such as the cello where the body and feel of the instrument came across in class A but not in D. Vocals were more prominently actually there and the accuracy of the singer was significantly improved.
With the class D amp, I felt there was a lack of volume and sometimes raised the level very high without achieving the sense of visceral presence.
SO, my question is this: Does the Lyngdorf 2170 accomplish the visceral sense of power lacking in the Nord description above?
AND, Grannyring, had the same experience in May of this year listening to the DIs at very high volume levels with the same sense of delight. Eric mentioned to me the potential danger of ear damage with very high levels and have adjusted my levels accordingly. |
Wondering if anyone had to wait for their DI grills a long time, got used to the sound of the speaker without covers, then got the covers and noticed the sonic change. If so, what were the differences?
Well, am only interested a little, actually...
Am posting to see if I get lucky and this becomes the 4000 post on the thread. Getting close, I see....
...OH and BTW, don't forget to check your DI speaker screws after shipment. They tend to get loose in transit. |
Almarg:
Not sure about the word "noise" in your post. Music at 95db from acoustical instruments is not dangerous at all. Noise, however, can be troublesome as loud as 90 db. Am considering "noise" to be random in nature and not periodic as is music.
Regularly play on a piano at 95 db and it is not at all stressful. When I listen to a sound system at the same level, however, it sounds loud -- and can be stressful if there is any noise (=hiss) or distortion.
Know a number of symphonic musicians who are 65+ years old and they hear fine after playing loud symphonies all their life. They do, of course, worry about their sound exposure and take certain precautions.
I share a number of the views above about the dangers of listening to recorded music at the 105-110db level. Have done DB tests with my audio systems and find this dangerously loud.
The more you listen to very loud audio, the more deadened your hearing becomes and you tend to up the volume to recapture the pleasurable sense of "loud." Take an hour off, instead, and return to the level you were listening at -- you will notice how much louder this is than you earlier had thought. |
Terry: Enjoyed your review of the Pass Labs XA-25; this is an amplifier type/price point I have been searching for. Purchased the DIs, btw, partly on the basis of your original review (seems like a longtime ago, doesn't it?). The lack of a balanced architecture has me worried, however. You mention this in your review but am wondering if you could expand on that architecture and consider what, if any, pros and cons this input style has. Thanks. |
corelli: We have discussed this several times above (but its a long thread, right?). Have built custom wall hangings that kill reflection behind AND between my two DIs and this alone has made a tremendous improvement in a large but poor acoustic space. Doing room correction afterwards fine-tunes the result but my experience in the studio and audiophile worlds is that physical room correction always beats signal alteration. Have found that removing the reflection behind the speakers allows them to stand in their own glory and this improvement is arresting in strength. |
Thanks, David_ten.
Have checked with Teajay and am awaiting a call back from Alfred. Would, ideally, like to have return privileges in case the first chosen amp doesn't have the power and will check first with High End Audio.
Again, if any others on this thread have heard the DIs with the Valvet, would appreciate your experience.
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David_ten et al:
Am finally ready to upgrade my DI amp for this summer's listening and am looking at either the PL XA25 or the Valvet E2 -- noted by David above as interesting candidates for the DIs.
Has anyone actually heard the DIs with the Valvet amp? Wonder if there is enough power for dense orchestral textures in a large room.
The PL XA25 appears to have plenty of power but am a little confused about a push-pull topology in a Class A amp. Will this be less exact than a SET style as in the Valvet?
Thanks. |
David_ten:
Your recent amp adventures; are these Lyngdorf 2170? Am much intrigued with this option, especially since KDude has embraced the efficient design. Cannot reconcile, however, my discouraging experience with Class D amps last year. |
Thanks, guys. These kinds of responses show the thread working for everyone and I will benefit from your knowledge.
KLH007's response has me thinking about the 2170 again although I just got the new RME ADI-2 DAC for the summer place. It has been demoed with the DIs, and they sound incredibly clean and transparent together.
Will think for one week then order.
David_ten: great stuff on your amps and thanks. |
Have any of the DI owners used or upgraded to the GAIA II loudspeaker feet? These are a bit more expensive than the Herbies Threaded Stud Gliders I am currently using, but appear to be more substantial and refined in their design. The Herbies cost around $130 as opposed to the $600 for the GAIA and I am wondering if there is enough additional improvement to justify the cost. |
david_ten: You mean the larger GAIA Is that go for $1200 for 8? Seems like overkill as they support speakers up to 220 lbs and my DIs are only 118. The GAIA III only seem to go up to 70 lbs while the GAIA II are rated at 120. Did you notice a difference in quality with the GAIA Is over the IIs? |
Thanks, all. The Aurios Bearings look interesting and they are about the same price as the GAIA II. Would not spend $1200 on feet but might try the Aurios. The Starsound items look interesting but their descriptive text strikes me as indirect at best. Will probably just stand pat with the Herbies as they have improved the bass and soundstage.. |
Grey9hound et al: So, your assessment is that they offer significant improvement compared to Herbies Threaded Gliders? Noted that they were 3 legged. Any danger of tipping? |
david_ten:
Congrats on your stunning system and the very helpful DI closeup. What is the stand under the Gliders? Is this a Herbies product?
Don't have children (anymore) but do have 5 active cavalier spaniels that will attack anything with teeter possibilities. How do they know? Must be instinctive.
And, did I mention, they love to pee on a sub? Something about those low frequencies... |
Grey9hound: Yes, very helpful and thanks for the effort. See that there are 4-legged options available. Which specific model did you choose? The depth appears to be 14 inches on most and I wonder if that is sufficient for the 17 1/2 DI depth. Do you stick the inverted cone into the bottom of the DI cabinet? |
Thanks, Grey9hound. Dave: five is enough for ten vets; they are not a healthy breed. But, then, there is the lapdog love. Other breeds are amateurs by comparison... |
dlcockrum: I congratulate you on your dog's health and am sad to inform you that Cavalier Spaniels are among the most unhealthy of canine breeds. They are known for their heart, throat, and, especially, neck problems (Syringomyelia). Many of these were caused by the inbreeding necessary to recreate the breed in the early 20th century. If you have 10 healthy Cavs you are among the most fortunate of owners and can enjoy all the plusses with no distractions. I have 3 boys that are mostly healthy and they are a delight. |
dlcockrum:
Agree with most of your informed description...
...however,
have just had a young female diagnosed with Syringomelia and it is not uncommon in the USA -- roughly 15% of US cavaliers eventually contract this condition. About 95% of Cavaliers have the underlying skull deformity that can or cannot result in the eventual problem.
There are 3 neurological centers in Phoenix devoted significantly to this problem and they make a good deal of money from MRIs. The breeder of the aforementioned female is well known, married to a vet, and claims she has not had another case in 18 years of breeding. She was questioned about this problem extensively before purchase and it still happened.
BTW, the surgical option is laughably bad -- roughly a 40% success rate and frequent recidivism.
AND I echo your comments about sidetracking this thread and will not continue. |
General information, please... Am getting ready to make an offer on an Audiogon item and have never done this before. The seller is new to the site and I am wondering how best to arrange for payment. Is there a way for Audiogon to hold the monies until the item arrives? The menu information is not completely clear here. Would appreciate sage advice from those of you who have done this; thanks in advance I apologize for a general question in this thread but do not want to open a new one just for this simple question. |
totalwex: Am using Double Impacts, upgraded, and with REW creating a convolution file (impulse and filters) and importing this into JRiver have a resulting flat room response (meaning, all electronics and room) from +/- 5db from 16 to 30k. This is without any subs. The room is very large and, admittedly, favors bass response. +/- 5db might not sound impressive to spec lovers, but as a final, complete result for the system AND room, it is very good and approaching studio standards (typically around +/- 3db). SOOO, I strongly believe you do not need a sub with the floor standing DIs if you apply a reasonable amount of room correction -- both physical correction (I use wall deadeners behind and between the speakers) and electronic EQ (such as described above). Corelli's advice above concerning HSU subs is worthwhile. I use these in studio and HT setups and they work splendidly. HSU builds a very fine product at a reasonable cost and they reach down to 16hz with authority. This 16 figure is of interest because 32 foot organ stops go down this far and produce a powerful roar for the lowest "C" on the organ pedalboard. |
@kristofa: The Cardas upgraded binding posts are copper with a + and - sign to indicate polarity. They tighten nicely with a wrench and hold the speaker cables securely. Being copper, they will always change color over time. Have not had any paint flaking from the grills but suggest you contact Eric or Karma about this. The sound quality of Tektons is without reproach; the same cannot be said about his approach towards grills. I find this a minor issue and Eric was kind enough to send me two sets of grills because he knew my spaniels have a tendency to decorate large black boxes... |
terry: Very interesting results that were a bit surprising to me. Just got a pair of the last Emotiva XPA-1s with the 60 watts of class A transforming to up to 1000 watts of class A/B. The sound/match with my DIs is riveting. Have you heard this (older) Emotiva amp? It was their standard for years and they are just now abandoning its older, very heavy technology. No more are available. Since it has huge amounts of 4 ohm power wonder how it would fare with the Ulfberhts. Eric told me he was using these a year or so ago. |
Is this the name for the "mini-ulfberht?" Looks very interesting, like the size, and am wondering about a 11" woofer... |
Four years ago I started a project for my summer home -- to assemble a stereo system that would recreate orchestral music at concert levels. After going through a series of equipment choices, have finally ended up with Emotiva amplification, RME conversion, JRiver/REW file manipulation and DSP, AND, ESPECIALLY, Tekton speakers -- the Double Impacts.
Last night, as the new class A amp settled in, was able to have my first serious home concert. Started out with a couple of obscure symphonic favorites by Raff and Spohr, then listened to the entire Mahler 5th by Boulez and the CSO. The latter is very, very bright, clear, and loud. Plus 500 watts loud by the XPA-1 meters.
And the orchestras were there right in front of me with timbres so accurate I could easily assess the qualities/strength of the individual sections and soloists. No distortion or strain. All correctly placed in a pristine soundstage. No noise. Repeat, no noise.
Go to live concerts regularly and now recognize that my home system offers better fidelity.
SO, THANKS ERIC! Your Double Impacts, at their attractive price point, helped make this pleasure possible. This system fulfills my 4 year goal splendidly and, with a cavalier spaniel on the lap, makes each evening a special event. |
devaultcarl1: Not at all. Have used Emotiva XPA-1L monos to drive the DIs for over a year (500 watts) and just upgraded to the XPA-1s (1000 watts). What is more important in terms of performance is Class A power. The XPA-1s have 60 watts of class A and this is enough to make the DIs sing. My XPA-1s deliever more than 500 watts of power to the DIs (can tell by the meter) and they do not mind at all. Emotiva amps have a strong and deserved rep in the studio world but are not popular on this site. Nonetheless, they are very accurate and match particularly well with the DIs. Get a pair of DIs ASAP; you will never regret it. |
lancelock: Are they the upgraded version? Where are they located? |
Lance: Thanks; too far away for me. |
jcarcopo: Am very interested in your speaker assessment AND your information about the Nord monos. Bought the Nord Stereo UP version from Colin last year and it was mediocre in my system. After a week one of the channels blew and I went back to an Emotiva monoblock that sounded 10 times more accurate for acoustic instruments and voices. My question to you deals with tonal weight. One reviewer of the Lyngdorf 2170 repeated my Nord experience: he kept increasing the volume to reach a satisfactory level and never quite got there. It wasn’t because the volume increase wasn't there, it was; it was because the tonal weight for the instruments wasn’t present. So, my question to you is one I have raised with several others on the Lyngdorf thread: do you feel that the weight (or body) of acoustical instruments is portrayed accurately with the Nord amp? Good instruments to check this are the cello and double bass. Do they sound natural and full? What is the maker for the Encore woofers? Am a bit unsure about 11 inch drivers. Is this one available on the market if you blow one? As mentioned above, have just upgraded to one of the last Emotiva XPA-1s and it has 60 watts class A and 1000 watts class A/B. The DIs do incredibly well with these amps and they draw, easily, 500 watts on large orchestral crescendos. So I second your description of the value of plenty of power. |
Am looking for the 5000 post; Corelli snuck the 4000th from me. |
jcarcopo: Thanks for your excellent response and the time it took: the thread continues to work. Had exactly the same experience with the Nord opamps and would have kept the unit had the left channel not died. Colin is a fine professional and refunded the entire purchase price. BUT, AGAIN, when I went back to my earlier monoblocks I was shocked at the difference in timbral accuracy. Sounds as if your CA friend had a similar, but less strong, experience. The Pass labs amps are highly touted but I have used Emotiva amps for years in the home and studio and the few complaints levied against them -- too bright, too accurate -- are pluses for me. My next audio project is to upgrade the speakers in my winter home -- currently am using there the Emotiva T1/C1/E1 5 channel set. They’re great for the money but Tekton speakers are a whole ’nother league. SO YOUR COMMENTS about the Encore are very helpful and my approach is to base purchase decisions on owners who report actual experiences. In this area your posts are extremely helpful. Perhaps Eric, or one of his helpers, will post the specific bass and midrange speakers he uses for the Ulfberhts and Encores. This is a big plus for those of us who want to ensure we can replace blown transducers down the road. Have identified the ScanSpeak tweeters he uses and they are available from Madisound. |
Tekton: The speakers people get up at 6am to listen to... |
16 posts and I'm betting on Corelli again; have to go to a party so I'm out of the race.
jcarcopo:
My technique is to have 2 homes and a stereo/5.1 system in each. That way, when you upgrade one you've got another home to outdo that previous upgrade. Works indefinitely as near as I can tell...but then there are the boxes in the garage... |
4996... ...isn't that the special price Eric gave jcarcopo for the Encores? NO, it's the posts as they approach 5000.Who will it be? |
It's congrats to david_ten and I plan on scoring at the 6000 mark. |
