Thanks All!
Lewn- I'm pretty sure from reading the blogs that Raul's armboard is separate from the turntable- ie not touching. However, I do see your point of keeping an even playing field by having the tonearm and the platter sharing the same plane. That being said... some brands of TT have a separate pod for the motor when the platter is driven by a belt. I had this idea in mind as I wondered of a pod for the tonearm. Maintaining geometry is still a vexing question.
Jax2- The Porter plinth is beautiful, yes. It also looks one step away from being gilded with gold... ie very expensive as you suggest.
Rnadelman- I've googled Mr Campbell and found a couple of pics of what looks like a very nice plinth. I'll drop him a line.
The other plinth option is a layered plywood plinth with the odd layer of lead or aluminum. A better option than solid/heavy/dense wood plinth? |
I forgot to mention my third option for a plinth- Marble. The Japanese seem to think that this is the best material for a direct-drive TT plinth. Slate is another, but marble is easier to come by and preferred by many.
Has anyone tried a marble plinth? |
Thanks everyone. For me, a lack of funds is the mother of invention, so that's why, at least in part, I'm thinking of Raul's clever approach.
I've always been a little circumspect when it comes to wood and turntables. I believe that its use transforms the turntable into a musical instrument (I also consider that sprung suspensions add to the euphonic mix). While all plinth designs have this effect, the goal (for me) should be neutrality. The more 'stuff' attached to the device that is extracting the micro signal from the groove, the more chance for colouration.
Lewm: Good points to consider. In place of the AT pneumatic feet of Raul's set-up, I was thinking of some of those fantastic feet from Herbie's Audio Lab. They would perform the isolation task very well and secure the TT to prevent dancing across the room... The company also make a great matt that is perfect for the SP-10. As for the pod, checkout this pod with adjustable feet, layering, damping and (brass?) weight:
http://www.turntables.lt/gallery/tonearmturret/norm_04859_2009-04-04.jpg
Rnadelman: Ah, the layered approach. If I had to go with a plinth, I think the plywood/aluminum woud be the best sonically. There is someone here (In OZ) who makes them. Do you think that they do a better job than wood of draining unwanted resonances?
Jsadurni: See the link above- is that the kind of 'pod' you made? Would you say that your setup keeps the speed and bass reproduction while extracting the upper mid and treble with air/space/soundstage depth?
Raul: It seems that Jsadurni is getting great results from the non-plinth + tonearm pod approach. I agree- I can always try the setup first. The feet I can use later with a plinth if the pod idea doesn't work.
Keep the idea coming, thanks everyone! |
OK, I'm going out-of-the-square.
What about a thick slab of concrete with holes cut-out for the SP-10 and a tonearm? Terrazo? Other aggregates? Does anyone know the sonic properties of the afore mentioned options?
What about three of four cement tiles, with holes cut, and then bonded together? |
Hi Lewm,
That is interesting info on the L07D. As for my budget concrete plinth- I suppose I would have to make sure that the 'slab' I buy is able to be cut without crumbling. I regularly see workmen cutting driveways and the like with a water protected circular saw arrangement. The tonearm hole would be easy, the space for the SP10 could be tricky.
What about a material like they use in kitchen benchtops? Nice colours too! |
Hi Lewm,
No, Corian. I read up on that- it's really some sort of polymer (Ie plastic). I also saw that people had tried it and it made a poor plinth- plastic is very unsuitable.
Think terrazzo. That's a sort of fancy concrete with pieces of marble through it- looks great! Other aggregates might be good too. |
Someone has suggested perspex with a layer of another material, like aluminum or wood. Not sure about perspex- reviews of turntables plinthed with the material don't read well. |
Hi Weisselk,
Well, your comments are borne from experience that I do not have- they are very welcomed- thanks. Did you ever try cement or a conglomerate for a plinth? It's heavy. It's cheap. But, would it be any good?
Lewm- I had good laugh at the "Fehhh" in your comment. I had to say it out aloud to get it. Fantastic, I had always wondered how that was written!
I suspected as much regarding the use of perspex. I think you are also being kind in regard to it's use with belt drive- still a bad idea methinks. It does, however, LOOK good....
Does anyone have a link for the dimensions of the SP-10 showing the unit graphically and the same for a suitable plinth?
Another challenge is the use of an arm with limited or non-existent VTA. I imagine that I would have to use a small block mounted on the plinth to bring the arm to the correct height.
Another person suggested that "a 12" tonearm is best because of the SP-10's large platter". Does anyone know what this means? |
LEWM: thanks for the tip on the cutout. Thanks also for the explanation of the arm length issue. Weisselk has also suggested that removing the base of the SP-10 could be a good idea, especially sonically.
Raul and others seem to have had success with a plinthless setup. It's looking like slate for a plinth or semi-nothing. Reports coming in on the cement option are poor. I imagine that resonance is the problem (like granite).
Hello Pyrso: Yes, there is a plethora of info on plinths for the rim drives, and much less for DD crowd. The OMA plinths are expensive...but I starting to believe that a finely made slate plinth is the best (plinth) option. The OMA models look exceptionally well made.
Yes (and Lewn said this earlier too and details it again above)- I think Raul's no-plinth setup is more correctly a semi-detached armboard setup. However, dibs to Raul for the application of his clever thinking.
Plaster of Paris, eh? Any other takers on that idea? Making the mold could be a pain though. I have trouble laying carpet tiles to fit a room let alone making a mold!
Yes- there is a strong valid argument for keeping the tonearm connected to the turntable proper
I'm thinking it's like when there a two cars drive next to each other, trying match speed, and a passenger attempts to pass a egg out the window to the other car while both cars negotiate pot holes and speed bumps!
It might be good 'ol 3/4 chipboard for a standby plinth after-all.
Oh, but those OMA slate plinths... |
Hey everyone. Read this blog (which what I should have done earlier)
'SP10 Mk II vs Mk III'
BTW Has anyone tried the afore mention cement or plaster plinth?
I hope someone at Panasonic is reading this blog. They might get the idea to reissue the SP-10 with updates for the 21st century. Think about it: They probably have all the manufacturing equipment still and the design start-up costs have paid for themselves years ago.
SP-10 MK4 or 5? **BRING IT ON!** |
Good points, Macrojack. Then, rather than re-inventing the wheel, follow the example done many including Origin Live. Buy the parts from the manufacturer and 'build' a 'new' DD turntable. Geez, they put Ford engines into exotic cars (Aston Martin- yeah, yeah Ford owned it at the time), and Toyota engines are tweaked and used by Lotus.
Even the standard SL1200 Mk2 can be made to sing (Dave at Sound Hi-Fi UK, KAB in the USA). Then why not either (a) buy the bits from Panasonic and 'make' a deluxe version (decent plinth, external PSU etc) or (b) Bulk buy the SL1200, use the parts and do the same. In this economic climate, Panasonic just might be all ears.... |
Macrojack- I still say that the resurgence of interest in direct drive TT, in spite of the belt-drive flat Earthers, may deliver a spark in the mind of a smart hi-fi business person.
I'm sure that somewhere in the UK/USA/Oz or elsewhere there is a set of busy hands dismantling a SL1200 for parts.
Like Origin Live and so many other 'cottage' companies, this person's little industry will produce a sparkling gem hewn from a MK2!
Perhaps Sound HiFi has some piece of equipment about to emerge from behind a shop front in the UK.
Yes- the CD is dying faster than the LP (and the LP is shipping more units each month in spite of its death)
However, I always considered the CD a replacement for the cassette. Portable and all that. We didn't get a replacement for the LP. And this point, I believe, addresses the last two posts- there will be a demand fore the LP and LP playback equipment as long as it remains the superior source for the playback of music. (DVD-A and the like are are dead as the dodo, so don't even go there!)
As for your offer on an SP-10. I have one! Besides, I would need 240V. Or may be I do need two... you have planted a seed.
I still, however, am in the market for a nice tonearm. 12", methinks.
As for the age argument, I refuse to be associated with the likes you bunch of 50 year olds! Indeed, I am only 49 and 3/4 years young.
BTW- these postings have wandered just a tad from the centre of the topic... |
The age comment was a dig at myself BTW just in case I invoke the ire of a million baby boomer audiophiles... |
Downunder: Yes, I agree. However, now I'm talking about a small operator who buys 2nd hand (or new) SL1200s, pulls them apart and re-births them as a top flight deck with a different arm, plinth, power supply etc. Hello Sound HiFi UK! Are you listening? Take the next step.
As for the GP audio. Nice. Tad overpriced. Yet, for the first 'X' amount of units, they won't make much moola.
BTW- I'm glad to see you chimed-in 'DOWNUNDER'. Could you get some comments onto the other thread I have started? It's about 12" SME arms. It would be great to hear from someone who is into rock/alernative. How does a SME 12" go with that style of music? |
Downunder: That's just the sort of comments I'm looking for! Put it up there. There many jazz, Weavers and 'Famous Blue Raincoat' lovers out there and I read their comments all the time. However, what about the music lovers who dig a massive bass-line, big drums and huge dynamics?
Some arms are good on acoustic music, voice etc but come undone when called upon to 'get up and boogie'. For example, pace, rhythm and timing can be lost in transit across the grooves. Other arms are good on the highs and mids, but have little or flabby bass- some unitpivots fall in this camp. Full orchestral music is perhaps the best test for any rig, but playing dance, rock and alternative music well is also desired in an arm. I want an arm that can do both, and do it well.
Lewm: OK- a good SP-10 goes for about $1,000 to $1,500. Then you add a plinth ($400-$2,000 ish), then an arm ($300 to $5,000), renovation work on caps, bearing oil, etc etc ($300 to who knows where) Get my drift? That SP-10 (with, granted, a u-beaut motor) is now getting into high-end price territory.
Now, buy a second hand SL1200 MK2 ($500 ish, it can be beaten up- who cares?). Remove the motor and electronics, build a plinth, build the outboard PSU, sell with provision to carry a Rega (that would encompass the Origin Live models too) and 9" SMEs. The customer could also specify a 12" arm.
It could be done on an exchange basis. (this is how the Origin Live started with their RB250/300 arms mods) You provide the SL1200, a cool small operator could do the work and give you back a bloody good TT. Alternatively, they sell the lot as a kit for OS customers or the DIYers.
I reckon the right operator with the right connections could offer the above for about $1,000 complete. Nothing fancy. Not high-end. Yet, it would blow a Rega P3 or a low/mid priced Thorens and other entry level TTs into the weeds!
There are millions of SL1200s out there just waiting.... |
