Wow, great picture of John Mc and his SOTA TT.
Taking the Lampizator Big 6 to the Next Level
I have owned the Lampizator Big 6 (B6) for about 4 months and can honestly say this unit is first rate. I use the Jade Audio Ref Platinum ICs from the B6 to the Aria WV line stage and a Dream State Dream Catcher PC on the B6. USB cable is the Vue Model 3. And I still am using plain ol' iTunes on a 2006 Mac Mini with SS drive and 2G RAM.
The DAC shootout thread on A'gon has covered many DAC's with some great reporting. The B6 was dismissed early on without trying other tube combinations. To dismiss a tube product because of its sound with stock tubes is blasphemy. Solid state products are indeed a better choice for such a consumer.
Manufacturers have no choice but to populate their products with off-the-shelf new tubes from tube distributors. But these are often highly compromised tubes that can not even begin to compete with the 1000s upon 1000s of available throughout the world. A little bit of effort and time, for very little investment, a swap of a pair or two of tubes can take a product to an entire new level of performance. And I discovered this with the results below.
The Good News:
The B6 version I have uses two pairs of tubes:
1: VT-99 for the Audio stage - Stock unit had Sylvania VT-99
2: 6x5GT as the Power Supply rectifiers - Stock Unit had 6u5C Russian tubes
I was given a pair of National Union VT-99 tubes as well with the B6. I was told by the seller to try both and get back with him. He said the results between the pair was quite different and he had a very clear favorite but would not comment further.
I started with the NU tubes and ran these for several days. Even out of the box, within one hour, the B6 was absolutely phenomenal. It had all the 3D magic that the legendary Manley Ref DAC from the mid 90s had but with a new level of treble clarity, midrange (piano) delineation and far greater depth. Images were far far back from the SoundLab A1 speakers that I ever experienced with digital playback. Piano decays, voice harmonic overtones carrying further up the frequency range was yet another new experience. These are traits that I often identify with a tube-optimized top tier tube line stage with tube rectified power supply, that simply no solid state line stage can touch. I could drop any solid state line stage or 99% of the ICs out there, inserted between the line stage and amps, and lose much of the magic that I now experience in my system due to the B6. The Aria WV line stage and the B6 with the Jade Ref cables are a killer match.
Finally, I switched over to the Sylvania VT-99. Wow, if they went beyond the NU, I can not even begin to imagine what might be possible. But as the out-of-the-box B6 was with the NU cranking out the magic, the B6 with the stock Sylvania was distant, much reduced harmonic continuity, piano notes not distinct, etc.; the result was a major reduction in instruments sounding natural with an overall shrinkage of the stage, most notably depth. I listened to this for a few albums but could not take it any more. A return the NU and the 3D magic and clarity was back. Anybody want a pair of Sylvania VT-99 tubes for cheap?
Three months later, I was ready to play with the rectifier tubes. But I thought I would try one more pair of VT-99's. I got a pair of Raytheon VT-99. These were nearly spot on with the NU but with just a little more smoothness which made many of the recordings sound more natural and tonally coherent. But overall, the 3D performance was neck and neck with the NU. Overall, I liked the Raytheon and I run with this tube now. But the NU is a top performer.
With my incredible experience with RCA 12BH7 destroying all 12au7 tubes in all my past components, and the awesome performance of the RCA 6SN7 in the Aesthetix components, I know that I must try the RCA VT-99 to finalize the tube choice here.
It was time to play with the rectifier. I got a different pair of Russian tubes, and also a pair each of Raytheon and RCA 6X5GT. I first tried the different designed russian tube and there was virtually no change in sound. This caught me by surprise as the tubes were very much different physically and my experience with Counterpoint and Aria products is that tube rectifier changes can make dramatic improvements at a level often surpassing changing audio stage tubes. I then tried the Raytheon 6X5GT. Wow, vivid Vivid VIVID. The sound was as if a huge spotlight had been added. Sounds came way out in front of the speakers. It was like going from a CJ line stage to an ARC line stage with so much energy right in front of you. There was far more treble detail but with the bottom half of the range much reduced, i.e., severe tonal coherency issues! It was quickly too much. This tube was out! I returned to the russian tube to get my reference sound back. After a few tracks, I then tried the RCA 6X5GT. Wow, wow, wow, now you're talking. Phenomenal tonal coherency, smoothness and upper treble detail with no fatigue. I enjoyed this tube for a few albums and then returned to the russian tube. The result with the russian tube was good tonal coherency but no match to the RCA as there was so much more life, energy, things going on, decays, harmonics and wow, dynamic contrasts with the RCA. The result of this RCA rectifier tube makes me even more excited to try the RCA VT-99.
Total cost for the Raytheon VT-99 pair and RCA 6X5GT pair is under $150. Not bad for a major component upgrade.
With the state of this B6 with the Raytheon VT-99 and RCA 6X5GT, I would put this up against the Lampizator 7 and I would not be surprised if the B6 destroyed the 7 in 1 or 2 parameters in a system that excels in 3D performance.
The Sad News:
There has been a lot of talk here on A'gon about the Lampizator USB interface not up to snuff with using an external SPDIF-USB converter like the Empirical Audio OffRamp 5, and especially with its external power supply. After keeping my eyes out for an OR 5 for a couple months, I finally snatched one up. I could not wait to try this out like nothing else on my to-do list. With amazement, like a sad sad puppy, I could not believe what I heard the soundstage was dramatically reduced with the OR5. How can this be with all the "you ain't heard the Lampi until you heard it with the OR5". Well I did and it was disappointment city. I discussed this with another Lampi 6 owner and he had only been using the USB and loved it with the NU VT-99 tube too.
I dug further and asked for advice with an electronics engineer on what might be the issue. Could it be that the new Lampi's have much better USB interfaces? Is the rat's nest wiring of the SPDIF connection to the board compromising the issue? The connection was rewired with a coax cable and updated with the "correct" capacitor. This update along with the OR external power supply resulted in the USB still creating a far more realistic soundstage. The experimentation was stopped with the conclusion that at least this generation of the B6 works at its best with the USB. My overall gut feeling here is that the B6's SPDIF likely has some issues which even the highly acclaimed OR5 could just not bring back to life. Again, perhaps this might only be observed with a system that excels in 3D, I don't know. But once again, like so often on this site, my results are so very different than many of those previously reported.
My previous experience with an older OffRamp converter with the Manley Ref DAC was outstanding results.
I had already requested and received a quote for a custom power supply from Paul Hynes for the OR5 and the Mac Mini. And later I was told it was better to run with two PS's but now I only need to focus on the PS for the Mac Mini.
The "Surprise" News:
During the USB evaluation process, it was discovered that standard 7805 3-terminal voltage regulators are used throughout the B6. I was quite surprised at this as these are hobbyist level devices that really have no business in a state of the art $8k DAC. I can only imagine the massive sonic improvement obtained with discreet circuits replacing all of these. Or imagine even a single highly regulated/filtered 5v PS to replace these would take this unit to the stratosphere. Another option is the drop-in replacement devices from Paul Hynes. A dozen of these devices might end up costing $400 or so, and might push the unit another $1k more, but wow, imagine the possibilities! After all, there is much talk about boutique capacitors in the product. Why should the voltage regulators be compromised? Maybe this would result in the new Lampizator 8 or even 9? 8-)
A Final Note:
For all of those who will cry out that what I am hearing are colorations and distortions, etc., due to the tubes, I have a piano in this room and I can plink keys at any time to hear the harmonics and decays. And the B6 in its current configuration sounds mighty mighty real.
John
The DAC shootout thread on A'gon has covered many DAC's with some great reporting. The B6 was dismissed early on without trying other tube combinations. To dismiss a tube product because of its sound with stock tubes is blasphemy. Solid state products are indeed a better choice for such a consumer.
Manufacturers have no choice but to populate their products with off-the-shelf new tubes from tube distributors. But these are often highly compromised tubes that can not even begin to compete with the 1000s upon 1000s of available throughout the world. A little bit of effort and time, for very little investment, a swap of a pair or two of tubes can take a product to an entire new level of performance. And I discovered this with the results below.
The Good News:
The B6 version I have uses two pairs of tubes:
1: VT-99 for the Audio stage - Stock unit had Sylvania VT-99
2: 6x5GT as the Power Supply rectifiers - Stock Unit had 6u5C Russian tubes
I was given a pair of National Union VT-99 tubes as well with the B6. I was told by the seller to try both and get back with him. He said the results between the pair was quite different and he had a very clear favorite but would not comment further.
I started with the NU tubes and ran these for several days. Even out of the box, within one hour, the B6 was absolutely phenomenal. It had all the 3D magic that the legendary Manley Ref DAC from the mid 90s had but with a new level of treble clarity, midrange (piano) delineation and far greater depth. Images were far far back from the SoundLab A1 speakers that I ever experienced with digital playback. Piano decays, voice harmonic overtones carrying further up the frequency range was yet another new experience. These are traits that I often identify with a tube-optimized top tier tube line stage with tube rectified power supply, that simply no solid state line stage can touch. I could drop any solid state line stage or 99% of the ICs out there, inserted between the line stage and amps, and lose much of the magic that I now experience in my system due to the B6. The Aria WV line stage and the B6 with the Jade Ref cables are a killer match.
Finally, I switched over to the Sylvania VT-99. Wow, if they went beyond the NU, I can not even begin to imagine what might be possible. But as the out-of-the-box B6 was with the NU cranking out the magic, the B6 with the stock Sylvania was distant, much reduced harmonic continuity, piano notes not distinct, etc.; the result was a major reduction in instruments sounding natural with an overall shrinkage of the stage, most notably depth. I listened to this for a few albums but could not take it any more. A return the NU and the 3D magic and clarity was back. Anybody want a pair of Sylvania VT-99 tubes for cheap?
Three months later, I was ready to play with the rectifier tubes. But I thought I would try one more pair of VT-99's. I got a pair of Raytheon VT-99. These were nearly spot on with the NU but with just a little more smoothness which made many of the recordings sound more natural and tonally coherent. But overall, the 3D performance was neck and neck with the NU. Overall, I liked the Raytheon and I run with this tube now. But the NU is a top performer.
With my incredible experience with RCA 12BH7 destroying all 12au7 tubes in all my past components, and the awesome performance of the RCA 6SN7 in the Aesthetix components, I know that I must try the RCA VT-99 to finalize the tube choice here.
It was time to play with the rectifier. I got a different pair of Russian tubes, and also a pair each of Raytheon and RCA 6X5GT. I first tried the different designed russian tube and there was virtually no change in sound. This caught me by surprise as the tubes were very much different physically and my experience with Counterpoint and Aria products is that tube rectifier changes can make dramatic improvements at a level often surpassing changing audio stage tubes. I then tried the Raytheon 6X5GT. Wow, vivid Vivid VIVID. The sound was as if a huge spotlight had been added. Sounds came way out in front of the speakers. It was like going from a CJ line stage to an ARC line stage with so much energy right in front of you. There was far more treble detail but with the bottom half of the range much reduced, i.e., severe tonal coherency issues! It was quickly too much. This tube was out! I returned to the russian tube to get my reference sound back. After a few tracks, I then tried the RCA 6X5GT. Wow, wow, wow, now you're talking. Phenomenal tonal coherency, smoothness and upper treble detail with no fatigue. I enjoyed this tube for a few albums and then returned to the russian tube. The result with the russian tube was good tonal coherency but no match to the RCA as there was so much more life, energy, things going on, decays, harmonics and wow, dynamic contrasts with the RCA. The result of this RCA rectifier tube makes me even more excited to try the RCA VT-99.
Total cost for the Raytheon VT-99 pair and RCA 6X5GT pair is under $150. Not bad for a major component upgrade.
With the state of this B6 with the Raytheon VT-99 and RCA 6X5GT, I would put this up against the Lampizator 7 and I would not be surprised if the B6 destroyed the 7 in 1 or 2 parameters in a system that excels in 3D performance.
The Sad News:
There has been a lot of talk here on A'gon about the Lampizator USB interface not up to snuff with using an external SPDIF-USB converter like the Empirical Audio OffRamp 5, and especially with its external power supply. After keeping my eyes out for an OR 5 for a couple months, I finally snatched one up. I could not wait to try this out like nothing else on my to-do list. With amazement, like a sad sad puppy, I could not believe what I heard the soundstage was dramatically reduced with the OR5. How can this be with all the "you ain't heard the Lampi until you heard it with the OR5". Well I did and it was disappointment city. I discussed this with another Lampi 6 owner and he had only been using the USB and loved it with the NU VT-99 tube too.
I dug further and asked for advice with an electronics engineer on what might be the issue. Could it be that the new Lampi's have much better USB interfaces? Is the rat's nest wiring of the SPDIF connection to the board compromising the issue? The connection was rewired with a coax cable and updated with the "correct" capacitor. This update along with the OR external power supply resulted in the USB still creating a far more realistic soundstage. The experimentation was stopped with the conclusion that at least this generation of the B6 works at its best with the USB. My overall gut feeling here is that the B6's SPDIF likely has some issues which even the highly acclaimed OR5 could just not bring back to life. Again, perhaps this might only be observed with a system that excels in 3D, I don't know. But once again, like so often on this site, my results are so very different than many of those previously reported.
My previous experience with an older OffRamp converter with the Manley Ref DAC was outstanding results.
I had already requested and received a quote for a custom power supply from Paul Hynes for the OR5 and the Mac Mini. And later I was told it was better to run with two PS's but now I only need to focus on the PS for the Mac Mini.
The "Surprise" News:
During the USB evaluation process, it was discovered that standard 7805 3-terminal voltage regulators are used throughout the B6. I was quite surprised at this as these are hobbyist level devices that really have no business in a state of the art $8k DAC. I can only imagine the massive sonic improvement obtained with discreet circuits replacing all of these. Or imagine even a single highly regulated/filtered 5v PS to replace these would take this unit to the stratosphere. Another option is the drop-in replacement devices from Paul Hynes. A dozen of these devices might end up costing $400 or so, and might push the unit another $1k more, but wow, imagine the possibilities! After all, there is much talk about boutique capacitors in the product. Why should the voltage regulators be compromised? Maybe this would result in the new Lampizator 8 or even 9? 8-)
A Final Note:
For all of those who will cry out that what I am hearing are colorations and distortions, etc., due to the tubes, I have a piano in this room and I can plink keys at any time to hear the harmonics and decays. And the B6 in its current configuration sounds mighty mighty real.
John
Showing 13 responses by jafox
Outstanding review John. I think people miss the Lampi magic with the lack of due diligence.So very true. But true for many tube and non-tube products which people boot out and in with another to their system rather than to recognize the product's strengths and then to look to resolve it's weaknesses with a little effort at the product or system level. Recognizing where in the system each issue can be addressed/resolved, if it can be resolved at all, comes with a lot of system building experience. Sometimes a product just stands way out from the crowd in a few key parameters. Other than my aging Clearaudio TT with Graham 2 tonearm, everything else in my system meets this criteria. And the 100s of hours of tube rolling efforts, tons of cable trials, trying a multitude of conditioners and isolation devices, finally this results in one hell of a top performance SYSTEM. And then leave the damn thing alone to focus on listening to music that sounds so good that you find yourself up late late night after night not being able to leave. It's a lot more fun than listening to a handful of tracks over and over for several nights comparing hardware every time an evaluation for update occurs. But the forever update bug (especially with new cable models coming out quarterly) is just too much for some people to handle and establish closure. There was so much praise on the Lampi 4 just a year ago and then they were all quickly dumped like a smelly diaper for the next latest and greatest Lampi or the other status DACs, the Phasure or Killer or latest from Aestheix, etc. I would love to hear the L4 in my system. And I suspect I could tweak it for very little money to get it to sound incredible. And I have a major curiosity bug to try these devices in the B6. I know a local electronics tech tweak wizard here in MN who could do this for me if I want to proceed ..maybe 1-2 at a time and see if there is truly a benefit and what it is. And I say that knowing full well that most manufacturers will opt for current production tubes rather than spend time searching out NOS tubes, where reliable supply is clearly a big issue. It's one of those probably unsolvable disconnects between design and the marketplace.I totally agree. And this is where we, the consumer comes in to optimize this product for our system as described above. When we change our speakers,we need to rearrange things in our room to accommodate ideal placement of new speakers. We don't just plop them down where the last speakers were and then make a go/no-go decision based on this without moving them around or angling them in or out. Why do so many people make such snap decisions with electronics? Sure, some products have no redeeming qualities at all, relative to what is already in the system, and deserve to be dismissed. But if your gut feeling tells you that something is special here, but not quite "perfect", it is to your benefit to try and bring out more of that magic rather than to quickly dismiss it for being imperfect. The B6 is an example of such a success story. And thank you John Mc, LAK and Agear. I'm really into this for the emotional factor to get the music to simply sound phenomenal. And the tweaked B6 has taken me there for the digital side. I could not careless about the L7 now that I have the B6 sounding so damn good. And I have not heard it with the CAT amps yet which should take the system to yet another level of performance. I have always optimized my system for analog and then tweaked the digital side to integrate with that as much as possible. If I can not achieve this, it's onto the next DAC trial/evaluation. I was 85-90% successful with the GNSC modified Manly Ref DAC . Not bad! I ran with the Manley Ref DAC for over 10 years as it was that good. How many people here can say they ran with one DAC all that time and enjoyed the result to be content with what they had in the context of the rest of the system being top notch as well . With the tweaked B6, I am now about 95% there Bat maybe I will be close to 100% with the updated SoundLab speaker backplate and cat amps back in action. But the system really sounds so good right now even with the cheesy Nola Boxer speakers. What a great feeling to finally be reaching the end of the road after 35+ years of chasing the holy grail of sound. |
Doak, as an analog fan, I can relate. However I must get up every 22 minutes or so, flip the LP over or put if back in it's cover, get another, maybe need to clean it, put it on the TT, drop the arm and go back to my seat. With the arrival of a top performer DAC and computer based music library vs. a wall of book cases of LP's, I can switch any music I wish in a matter of seconds and not interrupt my relaxed state. This is easy to get used to especially when I want to skip tracks or select specific tracks. But I'm forever an analog fan. |
Agear, I need to get the Sound Labs backplates replaced in the next few months before you can stop over for a listen. Ideally I'd like to have the CAT amps up and running too. That will knock your socks off. As for panel speakers doing the magic, sadly for me, only the Magnepans do this and even far far far greater the magic of Sound Labs. I heard the Stax many years ago and they had great detail but did not have the 3D wow factor at all. Then I went to a Mpls audio dealer to hear the Magnepans and Martin Logan. The salesman demoed several ML's for me and much clarity and detail was there, but they were just not musically involving to me at all. Way too analytical. Then we tried the Magnepans and wow, totally different. Not quite the detail but so very enjoyable. Sadly, so many Magnepan owners never appreciate the magic as they use budget and midfi amps with these speakers and they never find the right power resistor value for the treble circuit to optimize tonal coherency. Many years later I took the Magnepan 3.5's to a Sound Labs dealer. The Magnepans were no match. The SL's had all the musical magic but with so much more bass extension and awesome clarity and tonaly coherency. I never heard any other speaker with such qualities. We compared the Atma-sphere MA1 to the CAT JL2 and both amps were phenomenal with the SL's. Once you hear this, there is just no going back. In all honesty, I am hearing the B6's magic not so much because of the apeakers, as I have been listening to the Nola Boxers lately. I give so much credit to the Aria WV5 being an awesome match to the B6 and the cabling that brings out the capability of the B6. It will be great to have you visit when I get things fully back in order by the end of this year. |
Oh yes. I forgot all about Accustat. I heard the 2+2's at a Linn dealer 30+ years ago and liked the sound very much. But so much has changed since then. Trying a pair in my system would be a very Interesting experiment except I don't think my ceiling is tall enough. Probably not many of these have survived over the years. |
Well guys as reported before, I just have not experienced dramatic differences in transports over the years. I had a Genesis Time Lens years ago and this made quite a nice improvement in delineation. And the Marigo digital cable contributed the same. But swapping transports never did much if anything. And yet differences between DACs was always significant likely due to PS design, the audio output stages, etc. Swapping in a cheap DVD player never destroyed the spatial qualities that I already had vs so many DACs turning the presentation into a flat boring result. With the B6 USB interface, I have phenomenal clarity and space between the notes without the smearing I hear so often in other setups. And as reported before, the SPDIF here was a no go for me. So I'll let the USB vs SPDIF and transport vs PC debates continue here but I'll stick with the magic I now have until I resolve other system and room priorities. I have no desire to return to CDs. Just upload the content to a computer and maintain a backup. And one of these days this old Mac mini will die and I will readdress this link accordingly. |
45's indeed. I bought that special Led Zep 45 set many years ago and it's still unopened in its metal flight case. Doak, no reason to chase digital's best. I ran with the Manley Ref DAC for 10+ years and it so mightily outperformed the claimed "best" again and again. After awhile, I just stopped trying other products in my system and enjoyed what I had. Now with the B6, I have no doubt I will run with this for 10 years as it will take that long for the next digital generation to take the music to the next level as the B6 did over the Manley. |
Actually Grannyring it was not just my ears .it was a confirmation by Steve himself .and this included the Dynamo PS. Sadly, the SPDIF input on the B6 or this one anyway is dimensionally flat vs the USB input. Has nothing to do with my ears ..flat is flat! Has nothing to do with system differences. Flat is flat! A system with a SS line stage would likely not be able to show as dramatic a difference as I hear. If there is one strength my system nails in spades is the ability to handle decays and harmonic overtones with aplomb. The USB is the way to go here. |
I was saying a host of things including system, room, PC, cables, ears etc... all together can make for different outcomes.Yes, true, if we are talking about the final resultant (analog output) Lampi sonic differences themselves. But once the D-A conversion takes place, whether from USB or SPDIF, it is clear that the two digital inputs result in a very different analog outcome, one with far more spatial information that the other. No system change or new system will be able to change this outcome other than perhaps, due to higher resolution, show even more so their differences. Lampi units are like snowflakes in that no two are exactly the same it seems.I have noticed this from pictures of various Lampi units for sale here. |
I finally got a chance to try the RCA VT-99 to compare to my reference, the Raytheon VT-99. With nothing but major success with RCA tubes in many links in my system, I had the highest expectations and I admit, bias, for the RCA to come out the "winner". But it was quite a disappointment. I listened to the B6 with the Raytheon tubes for over an hour with a few tracks each from Dire Straits, Supertramp and Steve Winwood albums. I then installed the RCA VT-99; after this was in the B6 for an hour, I started the listening comparison. Right away the lower mids were strong and well defined. Great piano fundamental power in this range. But sadly the upper and mid bass was lacking presence. Moving onto the upper mid and lower treble exhibited a significant lack of "energy" and air. While trying to get a handle on the tonal coherency issues, it was also very clear that there was a significant reduction in dynamic contrasts. This is another strength that I listen for during a shootout. Mid and lower treble harmonics which had so much energy and clarity with the Raytheon were much much reduced with the RCA. This resulted in decays truncating too quickly and thus a most boring listening session. This made me think of the early CD playback days or putting an ARC LS2, ML 38S or Ayre K-5xe line stage into a system that previously had a high performance tube line stage with awesome 3D performance. It takes much time and effort to assemble a system to achieve a hint of live music's 3D presence and only a matter of minutes to destroy much of what had previously been achieved. Finally, a return to the Raytheon VT-99, cooled off for more than an hour, instantly brought back the magic I previously had been experiencing. Maqnifique! So the RCA VT-99 was a no go for me. I will look to try the TungSol VT-99 as a last comparison here to the Raytheon. |
Well Agear, I must give credit to Michael Elliot of Counterpoint/Aria to educating me on the significance of PS tubes along with the audio signal tubes. He was one of the very few tube product designers who started with readily available new tubes but informed his customers of significant sonic improvements from tube rolling trials. And one thing he pointed out was the great benefits of the rectifier tube. And he was not kidding! In the Counterpoint SA-2, SA-5 and Aria WV5, I tried a handful of tubes in the rectifier socket and the Amperex Bugle Boy EV4 was a killer improvement every time. I was amazed at what this $20 ebay tube could do. And this experience made me very eager to do a similar trial in the B6 .and the effort was worth it in spades. Makes me wonder what other Lampi owners are hearing or not hearing.So true but true for so many who are running stock Sovtek, EH and other crappy tubes in their multi-thousand $ preamps, amps, DACs, etc. Then they are not happy, and buy another product with the same crappy tubes, and on and on and on .never really hearing the magic of any of these products. An Agon member Bart Posner sent me a ton of tubes to try on the 3 small signal tubes in the front end of the CAT amps. A lot of tube trials and I found a triplet that took these amps to a level that I would not be surprised would rival or be damn close to the latest $50k iteration of the JL-3's running with stock Sovteks. But I have read many times in these forums that Ken Stevens of CAT does not believe in tube rolling and says his products sound best as delivered. Oh well, to each his own. |