Hi Bacardi, I have the new Precision Reference plugged into the PowerCell 10SE and the Galileo PMC. There are 3 circuits -- silver, gray and black. I can't compare with the previous line but Ted Denney says that they were using the equivalent of the gray with the earlier Precision Reference. Each circuit is has a different sonic "coloring" -- the silver is the coolest and the black is the warmest. They are all very resolving. Hope this helps. |
Hey Glor, ever heard high end SR products? |
I just got my PowerCell 10SE and will connect it tomorrow when my electrician arrives to install a 20-amp dedicated line from the power pole directly into my music room. In the meantime I have installed MiGs under my step-down transformer, CDP and integrated amp. Well, if there is a single no-brainer tweak in the audio world it is the MiGs -- and for the price a super no-brainer. They have already elevated my system -- sound stage width and depth -- resolution -- dynamics -- you name it -- far beyond what it was when I had my old power conditioner connected to the system -- one of the best names in the business. Before the MiGs I experienced the wow factor a few times in my system -- Ric Schultz's EVS Ground Enhancers being a recent example. But these MiGs ... man, they are outta sight. |
Joeyboynj, hard to believe you are selling your PowerCell 10SE since you have commented positively on the improvement when the Galileo MPC was added. Are you upgrading? By the way, what sonic improvements did you notice with the Galileo added to the PowerCell? |
Joeyboynj, I found your 2 system pages but I could not find your comments on the sonic improvements. No problem. |
Joeyboynj, thanks for the information. |
Tvad, it just goes to show you how we all have to take the measure of things in each of our systems. Sharing this information is extremely valuable but YMMV with each element added. I will not put a number on the EVS and the MiGs. I give them both a very high rating. In my system they transform the sound in a way that is not subtle at all -- like a major component upgrade. |
Joeyboynj and Flashunlock, I'm enjoying my PowerCell 10SE very much. I have my old Tesla Plex as my wall receptacle at the end of a 20-amp dedicated line. I had the new Tesla Plex SE plugged into the Tesla Plex on the end of a stock PC with a stock plug. Last night I took the stock plug off the stock PC and replaced it with an Oyaide P-004. NIGHT AND DAY !! SUPER WOW !! The PowerCell was transformed in every way especially the sound stage and fullness and dynamics and inner detail. I cannot over-emphasize what Oyaide plugs have done for my system. I also installed MiGs under all components -- two at the back and one at the front. I put the first set under my step-down transformer and this produced a massive change in the sound. Pin-point works best for most people so I tried pin-point under everything. I had to change to ambient under my amp and step-down transformer because the resolution was too bright with all pin-point. Now it's perfect. |
Hi Violin, I don't have a Hologram D in my system so I cannot comment. All I know is that the PowerCell SE (with Precision Reference power cord and Galileo MPC) has made a huge difference in my system -- sound stage, low level detail, dynamics. Bacardi, I have 4 sets of MIGS, one set under each component. They are out of sight -- very impressive. I am using the Tesla Plex SE in series with the Tesla Plex. When I removed an older power cord and swapped my Gabriel Gold Reflection power cord into the Tesla Plex which is my wall receptacle that leads to the Tesla Plex SE it was a day and night difference. The synergy changed completely. It was like taking the lid off the box. Everything opened right up. I hope this helps. |
Hi Tbg, sorry for the confusion. I have a 20-amp dedicated line from the pole outside the house for my music system. My Tesla Plex is my in-wall receptacle. My electrician installed my Tesla Plex SE into the Tesla Plex using a stock copper line terminated with a stock plug. I cut off the stock plug and spliced an Oyaide P-004 plug onto the end of the cord. That was a major improvement. Then I plugged the P-004 via a cryo-ed Schurter into a Gabriel Gold Reflection power cord that I plugged into the Tesla Plex. That's what made the really big difference. Previously the GG was my CDP to PowerCell power cord.
One more thing. Last night I piggy-backed two XLR ICs together and connected them from my CDP to integrated amp. I will not provide any description here about the sonic results because of the inevitable spammers who I will no longer reply to. Anyone who is interested and who has not spammed in the past can PM me. |
If your system is highly resolving and you have MIGs in your system try "super" ambient -- all 3 points in the north position. I am getting wonderful results with this. |
Hi Joeyboynj, I will be installing SR universal speaker and IC cells in August. I think that will be about it for me. The budget is over-the-top now. But the results so far have been worth the price. SR knows what they are doing. I also do tweaking and experimenting to get the best out of my system. So far, so good (Steely Dan). |
I am using the Gray on my PR power cord with very good results. There is a very distinct difference between the 3 Enigma circuits. |
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Glor, you must have a problem with your system if the SR cables did nothing for you. LOL. |
The 10SE is basically a very good product but the retail price was excessive in light of subsequent events. It looks like SR brought it out with the marketing plan of bringing out a 4-module version a few months down the road for the same price -- the MKII. I agree -- by the time you got to the end of the block and turned the corner they came out with the MKII that made recent purchasers of the 10SE holding an already obsolete product with a resale value of less than 50%.
Ted, will you upgrade my 10SE to the MKII? Mine was actually shipped with the G-07 and twin Enigmas -- so I missed the MKII cut by a hair. Unfortunate and disappointing. When we're talking about a low or mid-priced item this may be something one can grow to accept. But when you are dealing with a $5000 product it is a lot harder to swallow -- especially for those of use who have to work very hard to earn the asking price. Yes, some (not all) SR marketing is at a gallop-too-fast, IMO.
Sr's marketing does not mean that SR products should be casually dismissed. They should not be, IMO. The 10SE should not be dismissed, either, when compared to other high-end power conditioners. In my experience, SR make some of the best high end power cords on the planet -- and they market them at a trot instead of a gallop. Which makes the obsolescence issue less of a problem. For instance, the Tesla SE Hologram D is a game-changer, IMO.
Talking about Quantum Tunneling, if you compare SR MPCs that are Quantum Tunneled versus those that are not QT-ed the difference is not subtle. Quantum Tunneling is not merely a marketing term or a low-value process. On the contrary. But the $500 price tag for each MPC means this is a serious purchase versus the standard MPC. SR products are not for those with a light wallet. But if you have the money and create the right synergy in your system with them you can end up a very happy camper.
I run SR cables in series with cables from other makers. Even though some SR cables are top-of-the-heap I have not found a single SR cable that performs nearly as well on its own as when it is in series with another high end cable, IMO. Of course, you need to experiment to create that very special sound -- and that can be a lengthy and expensive process. |
One aspect of MPCs that I forgot to mention is that they can become too much of a good thing -- in my system. I recently replaced one standard MPC with a Galileo Quantum Tunneled MPC. It killed the sound, rendering it sterile, lacking in the 3-D sound stage it formerly had, and lacking in soul. When I replaced it with the standard MPC everything fell beautifully back into place. It shows you how system dependent all this is. You have to find out what works for you -- never mind what anyone says. |
Everyone upgrades. That's not a valid criticism, IMO. It is the pace of the upgrades that is sometimes irksome. I don't think you can argue with quality when it works in your system. If SR didn't work in your system so be it. But for a large number of people -- including me -- SR products work very well when you pick and choose well. They are indisputably one of the very best cable companies out there.
The dohickies are part of what makes their cables work so well. If you don't like a bunch of wires snaking like a spider's web all over the place I can understand that. My wires are a mess and there is no way to change that except to get rid of some wires. The sound is more important than the aesthetics for me. |
Your comments that "SR knows how to keep a $$$ flow going" also applies to other cable makers. All cable makers are in business to make money -- are they not? This is not a valid criticism, IMO.
For me, valid criticisms are related to the quality of the products I purchase and how quickly SR renders them redundant. If the quality is there I am happy. If they render my recent purchase redundant right after I make payment I am not happy -- especially when it is a new product in their line that has not even had time to get to first base in the audio marketplace.
These are the things that matter to me -- not how much money they are making or how many wires are hanging all over the place. |
Yes, the difference in price for the MPCs is significant. I actually had to swap out a Galileo MPC for a standard one. I have so many Galileos in my system, when I plugged in the last one my system became unlistenable -- with sound stage collapsed and harsh, soulless music emanating from my speakers. Once I swapped back the standard MPC everything was beautiful again. I have no explanation for this dramatic change in system synergy. Probably too much of a good thing. |
I don't find I need to upgrade continuously. I am happy with the sound of my system. I don't let what a manufacturer does push me into upgrading just because he came out with a new line. For instance, I have no intention of buying the new Element cables. If I had a bottomless wallet and if there was something lacking in the sound of my system I might be interested. But such is not my case -- wallet-wise or sound-wise. There has to be an end to it all. Otherwise you are on an endless treadmill where you are never satisfied and always in the upgrade-and-test mode. Never enough -- an audio junkie. |
Theaudiotweak, good point. I just went to the US Patent Office site and did a search under Synergistic Research and another search under Ted Denney. Nothing came up. Which does not mean SR products don't work. They work wonderfully in my system. But what's up with the statements of "patent pending" in SR's marketing literature? I'd also like to know. |
Hifinut604.
I agree. I just missed the "cut" by days on the full PowerCell 10SE upgrade. I did receive the newer power cord but I feel that, having paid full price, I should have been given the opportunity to get the full upgrade that was just around the corner.
I also agree that this aggressive marketing on the part of Synergistic Research is encouraging many of us to wait a few months for good used deals. You may note that good used deals come up more and more frequently nowadays as a result of the 5 versions of the PowerCell that are now in circulation. It took the span of about 3 years to get 5 versions out. This means it only takes about 7 months before one can expect a new version.
I too believe it makes long-term customers think twice and three times about paying full price. Today you can pick up the next to the best for an attractive price. Soon, what is today's best will also be available at an attractive price. Like you, I have a lot of SR cables in my system. It is not as though I am complaining about their products. I certainly am not. I am very happy with them. I would just like the word "fairness" to enter the equation.
Normally, Ted Denney follows these forums pretty closely. I imagine he is probably following this from the sidelines. I note his conspicuous silence regarding this matter and also the matter of patents pending. These are 2 areas that contain a lot of quicksand for him, IMO. Frankly, I am not totally surprised not to see his comments. It is easy to avoid issues here. Just don't show up. But I must say that I do regret this situation, having spent a lot of money on his products and having supported them quite vocally on Audiogon forums.
Customer loyalty and fairness means more than what SR is doing at the moment, IMO. Loyal SR customers are in a bind because they need to spend "twice the price of the original purchase to receive the full 70 % rebate." So, for instance, if you want to upgrade a $5,000 item, let's say the PowerCell 10SE that you purchased from SR, you need to spend $10,000 on a newer item in order to get a $3,500 (70%) trade-in value applied to your new purchase.
This means that you cannot get the newer version of the PowerCell with a PowerCell trade-in. You will need to pay full price -- another $5,000 -- and try to sell off your old version in a glutted after market or you can wait for the newer version to come up on Audiogon. In effect, SR have us over a barrel with what appears to be a liberal trade-in policy. IMO.
These days, you are lucky to get much more than $2,000 for a PowerCell 10SE on the after market -- if you are lucky enough to sell it at all. That means it will end up costing you $8,000 to $10,000 if you want the newest version of the PowerCell. That's quite a lot of money to pay for a power conditioner what will probably be superseded a few months down the line by a new version. This is one of the reasons people feel that they are on an endless merry-go-round.
I solved the problem this way. I picked up a Bybee Stealth used -- at an amazingly low price -- and put it in series with the PowerCell 10SE that I deem not worth the trouble or the money to trade in. The synergy of the 2 units together is stunning. Then I added a few Bybee Quantum plug-and-play Purifiers throughout my system. The Bybees never go out of "style" -- even the old versions from the 1990s. The sound is awesome. The Bybees can be got for $300 each or a pair.
So, for a fraction of the price of staying on the merry-go-round I have found a solution that I am very happy with. It may not be totally "future proof" -- after all, what is "future-proof" in today's fast-moving high end audio world -- but the sound is so good that I am not tempted to look over my shoulder anymore to buy the latest version of what's coming round the bend. This is as close to "future-proofing" my system as I have been able to achieve.
Further related to "future-proofing" is the way I run cables. I run them in series and in parallel. I have been able to achieve a level of "realness" to the holographic soundscape that I have found impossible to achieve with any single cable from SR or any other high-end maker I buy from. Element Tungsten may get you there but I have not tried it yet.
This special method of running cables in series and in parallel -- yes it takes time and money and a lot of experimenting to see what works and what does not -- further contributes to the "future-proofing" of my system. I don't know anyone else doing this. If you are interested in trying this out get yourself ASI Liveline XLR interconnects and piggyback them together with SR Acoustic Reference from DAC to amplifier. You'll see what I mean before you get to the end of the first track. |
Bacardi,
I enjoyed reading "My wires are neatly arrayed in a sequence of direction with wife friendly appeal." My wife comes into my listening room, dances to the music, then goes around back of the speakers, stares at all the wires and exclaims "Look at that mess -- do you need all those wires?" Whereupon I explain, once again, they are the reason she now dances when she comes in the room.
Audiofeil,
You should have been a stand-up comedian with your hilarious one-liners. You might have got a few laughs on the audio circuit -- excuse the pun. In case you did not notice, I don't hear a chorus of laughter when you post. I hear a chorus of silence denoting indifference. |
Flashunlock,
The pace of new products coming online is often astonishing. SR's Element series is their latest and I have a feeling they are game-changers. But just watch. Within 12 months there will be Element MK I. Then Element MK II will come along. Then Super Element will come along as as a "breakthrough". Then Super Enigma bullets will hit the headlines. We will all be left in the dust before you have a chance to get to the end of the block. I don't have the money to keep up. I have to prepare myself for the psychological threshold of "the buck stops here".
My system is sounding great with some finishing touches soon to arrive. Once I'm done I won't look over my shoulder as I turn the corner. It is called being satisfied with what you have. There will always be something new and better coming along. But unless you have the resources you have to get off the merry-go-round. Otherwise you will eventually find yourself in trouble. Get your system synergy working for you and let others worry about the newest and latest. |
Flashunlock,
Pursuant to my earlier posting in reply to your comments, how much are we willing to sacrifice in search of the elusive Ultimate Sound Stage? You know the soundstage I am referring to. The one no one has but that is tantalizingly dangled before our audio eyes by various cable makers including SR year after year with each game-changing breakthrough.
You know the soundstage I am referring to. The one that destroys our walls. The one that extends clear into the neighbor's back yard and right over to the apartment block across the street. I mean how much do we REALLY need to be satisfied with the music? When do we finally say "This is great. I'm satisfied. The buck stops here."? Will I be gnashing my teeth till I'm 97 over the latest Super SE MK VII that I just missed out on -- and could not afford anyway? |
Hifinut604,
As audio companies become bigger customer loyalty sometimes becomes less important for them. When they do not think that reciprocating customer loyalty is important anymore things change. Customers vote with their feet.
A lot of SR's customers are well-heeled folks to whom money comes easily. I mean, who can afford to shell out 5 or 10 grand with each product upgrade unless there is big money in the picture. Others, like me, have to make it the old fashioned way. We have to earn it slowwwwly. At some point new products become out of reach. One's desire for better sound has to be tempered with the realism that there are priorities in life and the musical buck has to stop somewhere.
I am satisfied with the solution I have come up with for my system. I don't feel I am missing anything although there are other products out there that could bring my system to a higher level. The fact is there will ALWAYS be products out there that will do that. You cannot have everything in life and it is best to learn this lesson and save yourself a lot of grief. |
Glory,
Your point is noted. And appropriate, IMO. Through all of this, having spent a very substantial amount of money on SR products, and watching the pace of bringing new products to market, and watching how SR responds to what we are saying here, I also find it sad that they are not able to be more understanding and bring to the table a solution that would make a heck of a lot of their loyal customers very happy. It would take a special effort on their part to do so, granted, but I believe they would be rewarded many times over -- in terms of goodwill as well as the bottom line. I personally do not believe they have reached the threshold of "more than fair" -- yet. |
Hifinut604,
I would respectfully like to make a addendum to the information on Synergistic Research's site where they state:
"The new PowerCell 10SE Mk III is the 2nd revision to the PowerCell in five years ..."
Actually, the first version was the PowerCell 10, then came the PowerCell 10SE, then came the PowerCell 10SE MKI, then came the PowerCell 10SE MKII, then came the PowerCell 10SE MKIII. That makes that 5 versions. Perhaps Synergistic Research has a different meaning for the word "revision". I give them the benefit of the doubt here.
But it all adds up to the same thing -- 5 different versions. Jack Roberts wrote his "Power corrupts ..." review of the PowerCell 10 in March 2009. So that makes exactly 3 years for the 5 versions. Perhaps Synergistic Research are including the time devoted to R&D and prototyping to stretch the PowerCell timeframe to 5 years. But to loyal supporters of Synergistic Research it definitely looks like a 3-year timeline. And it sure feels like it too with one version coming on the heels of the last.
Now, I don't fault Ted Denney for making breakthroughs. That's what his work entails. I do find fault with his failure to publicly recognize what this is doing to some of his loyal customers who are not as well-heeled as others. We are effectively blocked from achieving the vision of sonic perfection SR holds forth to prospective customers. If you buy at the wrong moment in the development curve you are stuck. It is obvious that the future for SR lies with new customers and with loyal customers with deep pockets -- not with loyal customers of modest means. |
Knghifi,
I'm one step ahead of you. I'm already working smarter.
When you stated, "Market sets the price via supply and demand" this does not address the matter that was on the table which was people not wanting "to deal with" selling their audio items. I reiterate -- most people will take the better deal. If they can get a better deal by selling the item themselves they will normally do so. If they feel their chances of selling the item at a good price are slim they will opt for up-trade or The Cable Co. We are not talking about markets setting the price here, we are talking about selling options.
I don't understand this sentence of yours. What do you mean when you say, "No alternative is only obvious if Ted has some inappropriate videos of you and Bacardi".
It is a moot point that innovation brings better quality at lower prices. Again, this is not the point. The point is that when you spend $5,000 on an audio product that 2 years later requires you to spend a further $6,500 to get value out of it this is not the same as a computer that sells for $1,000 this year and 2 years later sells for $500 with twice the memory.
This is pure mathematics. With the latter you can pass your old computer to a friend or relation and you are only out of pocket another $1,000. With the former you pass your power conditioner to the company you bought it from and pay them an extra $6,500. So it's $1,500 for the computers and $11,500 for the audio products. That's an extra $10,000 for the audio products. And that's only one small part of an audio system we're talking about.
You stated, "DAC is ... basically a computer". I disagree. There is far more to a good DAC than simply converting 1's and 0's to analog. If DACs were merely computers they would all sound the same. I think it is obvious that they do not all sound the same. So it is far more than 1's and 0's we're talking about here.
You stated, "Whether a product is over priced or good value is up to the individual purchasing the product to decide and not you." If I am one of the individuals purchasing the product then it is also up to me. Companies set the price and impute value to their products. Whether the value they claim is there actually is there remains to be seen once customers evaluate those audio products in their systems.
The fact that customers are willing to pay the price is only an indication that the company is charging what they feel is the maximum that the market will bear. It is not an indication that value is there commensurate with the price customers are willing to pay. The words "over priced" and "good value" come into the picture after the fact once there has been customer evaluation.
If Joeyboynj wants to up trade it is an indication that he either was not able to get a good price for his product in the marketplace or he wanted to purchase another SR product twice as expensive and was willing to settle for 70% of the value. In this case it is a win-win situation. But in many cases it turns into a win-lose situation for the customer.
You stated, "Have you ever considered SR is NOT TARGETING for your business?" This is precisely my point. SR chooses not to offer an upgrade program. They are successful enough not to have to worry about unhappy customers. But I contend, if they were working smarter, as you suggest customers should do to be able to afford their expensive products, they could choose to make a win-lose situation into a win-win situation and thereby increase profits. Admittedly, this would probably mean a reduced profit margin in this area of their business, but it would be more than made up by goodwill and a larger retained customer base which would end up benefiting them far more, in the end. IMO.
Of course, I realize SR is not going to create an upgrade option for their customers. This is just to indicate that creating an upgrade policy is a decision that is built into a company's fundamental way of looking at how they want to serve their customers. This is done from the ground up. The decision not to offer an upgrade police is not dictated by the marketplace. It is dictated by corporate philosophy -- and business plan then follows through. |
Jwpstayman,
You are correct. The Tesla Challenge is simply an offer to audition cables and compare them with what you have in your system. It is not a discount program.
Hifinut604,
I agree with you completely. Your statement hit the nail on the head:
"As a business owner, I would never allow my best clients to be pissed off in a public forum after spending their hard earned cash on my products."
My comments have been directed at the SR PowerCell. But they also apply to the Element series that came out a few months after the Tesla LE cables were introduced. If you up traded various versions of the SR PowerCell or if you up traded to the Tesla LE Apex recently, for example, you have been caught in a marketing trap. Feeling you have just been trumped would be a natural response. IMO.
If you are well-heeled you might be able to take this with equanimity. But it you are not it is hard to relax into this kind of fast-paced marketing and go with the flow and just enjoy. It is not that you cannot enjoy the music, it is that you have just shelled out a lot of your hard earned cash for what you thought was the best but that has too quickly become the next-to-the-best and that requires yet another up trade. |
Hifinut604,
Are you as disappointed as I am in Ted's comments or do they satisfy you? |
Ted,
I note the statement in your posting:
"... we make our products readily available through the no risk Synergistic Research Challenge. This seems more then [sic] fair."
However, you refer to the Synergistic Research Challenge on your site as a "70% Trade Up Allowance". With all due respect, this is not the same at all as a "no risk" challenge. Your offer requires the purchase of double the value of the original purchase.
Your site states: "You are upgrading to a Synergistic Research product or products whose value is twice the price of the original purchase to receive the full 70 % rebate." There is no mention of no risk on your site.
There are no upgrades offered on the PowerCell series. So, if a customer who purchased the original PowerCell 10 or PowerCell 10 SE, for instance, wishes to experience the benefits of the much-heralded PowerCell 10SE Mark III, they have to purchase it new. That makes a total of $10,000 to get to the top of the heap. If this customer was unfortunate enough to have purchased, for instance, a PowerCell 10SE Mark I in the interim, the total becomes $15,000.
Well, sir, this is a very tidy sum for those of us who are not among the financial elite. As each new version of the PowerCell hits the market all earlier models immediately depreciate in value. You may get two thousand dollars on the after market for your older PowerCell if you are fortunate enough to find a buyer. But you will note that most of these units now remain unsold after 30 days on Audiogon. Most of the earlier versions are now unsalable. I recommend running them in series.
I can understand your wanting to keep patent information close to your chest. But because this information is normally available to the public since all patent information is supposed to be public, in theory, that is, I find it strange that a search of the Patent Office website turns up nothing for Synergistic Research patents. Please note that I have no doubt regarding the veracity of your statements on this forum regarding your patents. |
Hifinut604,
Thank you for clarifying this. You are right when you differentiate between the really high end and the mid end. But for me, the mid end is also becoming out of reach the way things are going with fast-paced marketing. So it comes down to the same thing for me. I just cannot afford to keep "up trading" as SR calls it. The loss is unsustainable with each "up trade". If they offered an upgrading program, that would be a different story, as you rightly point out.
I agree with you completely about holding back bringing new products to market and giving loyal customers the opportunity to upgrade. You hit the nail on the head in both instances here. IMO. |
Hifinut604,
I think one further valid point is that the newest version of the PowerCell and the Element series are described as being a dramatic improvement over earlier comparative products in the SR line. This is one more reason why people may feel justifiably frustrated. If we were talking about an incremental improvement -- OK, not the end of the world. But if you bought the earlier LE or SE and then got trumped by a game-changer that leaves a different taste in the mouth. IMO. |
Fplanner2010,
You are correct, of course. Everything is system dependent. But if you found yourself in the kind of situation I described earlier and, let's say, you discovered that Element Tungsten or the PowerCell Mark III is the perfect match for your system but had recently purchased at full price a top-of-the-line SR product -- now dethroned -- you might have "special" feelings about your financial situation. Your choices might be clear but your wallet might have you in the ICU. If you know what I mean. IMO. |
Joeyboynj,
That's what I thought. I believe the SR trade-up policy works for those with deep pockets -- not for those who have to watch their budget carefully. With all due respect, if this does not present a money problem for you then your pockets must be deep enough to take the loss without feeling it. This is not my case. |
Joeyboynj,
I just accomplished something dramatic -- like what you are describing -- by placing a 1" x 1" x 2" neodymium magnet 3" under my Bybee Stealth power conditioner that is in series with my Powercell 10SE MK II power conditioner. The cost was $18 on Amazon. Give it a try. The difference is stunning. |
Thankful,
You stated about SR cables, "They produced a holographic sound that was cool but did not sound like live music (un-natural).". I agree. I own many SR products. There is a certain level of holography that they produce, but it is nowhere near the level of naturalness of the HiDiamond cables that I am now running -- at a fraction of the cost of SR cables. HiDiamond is giving SR more than a run for their money. In today's "new normal" economy HiDiamond came on the scene at the best possible time for customers. Their line may start to change at some point but they have had the same line for a very long time. I have no experience with the Von Schweikert cables so I cannot comment. |
Tbg,
I have a complex front end in series -- isolation transformer > power regenerator > Bybee Stealth power conditioner. This approach has been discussed on other site forums. I do most everything in series. If you can find the right combinations the results can be stunning -- far superior to running cables and front end in the conventional way -- one of everything. |
Tbg,
Sorry, that should have read isolation transformer > Bybee Stealth power conditioner > power regenerator. |
Tbg,
This is like those who comment on the sound quality of audio equipment they have never heard. You may hear a muddled mess but that's because you have not heard my system -- with all due respect. You have an open invitation to visit. I have not spent the last 7 years wasting my time, energy and money. I'm not that dumb -- or that hard of hearing. |
Glory,
Before making such uninformed comments it behooves you to become informed of the facts by visiting the HD site to see how they actually make their unique cables. I wonder why we are reading so many amazing reviews of HD cables on these forums if they are simply copper with cheap ends. Of course, your claim is totally false as shown by the facts of the painstaking manufacturing process. Cheap ends? Puleeease. It appears you have never even seen an HD cable -- or you would never make such a comment. I own a full loom of HD cables. They are the most amazing cables I have ever owned. |
Joeyboynj,
There is nothing fishy at all about HiDiamond cables. They are the real thing -- and there are a heck of a lot more than 5 people saying so. And, as Thankful just pointed out, "You don't have to hook up several $400 MPC's." In fact, the SR Galileo MPCs cost over $500 each for overseas customers like me.
One should be very careful about using the word shill. Would you say the same thing about someone who liked SR cables and who wrote about their preference on the forums? Do you mean the new guy on the block, HiDiamond, has to be put under a microscope because they are selling superior cables at a much more reasonable price than SR cables who, on top of out-of-this-world cable prices, charge a very hefty price for extra Galileo MPCs. Do you mean with the old guy on the block, everything goes -- including $1,800 power cords that used to work that no longer work but that's OK because there is an "explanation" for it?
By the way, I am not connected in any way with the audio industry -- except as a customer.
Tbg,
What are these HiDiamond cables all about? Please read the HiDiamond threads to find out what users are saying about these amazing cables. |
Glory,
I have no idea what your agenda is but it is obviously there for all to see with your flagrant baiting. It is a sorry state of affairs when this sort of thing starts to happen on these forums -- once again. We have seen this time and again here -- people allowed to come onto forums and gratuitously trash manufacturers with information that is not only totally false but that is also intentionally malicious.
The fact is that the HiDiamonds have the very highest build quality of any cables I have ever seen -- made with graphite, 4 x purified, with obviously expensive terminations -- the most sophisticated high-end terminations that I have ever seen on any speaker cables. And the sound quality of HiDiamond cables is the best of any cables I have ever heard. So where you come off with these totally outlandish statements -- while lobbing grenades over the fence -- is totally beyond me. |
Joeyboynj,
I did not lose interest at all. Why should I? How much of a gamble is it to try a power cord that has been universally acclaimed? Not much, IMO. I gambled and I won -- like the vast majority of others who have "gambled" on HiDiamond cables.
I only trust -- inside or outside the audio business -- to the extent that Ronald Reagan expressed: "Trust but verify." I trust my own experience and my own judgment. In the case of audio, I also trust my own ears. My ears have never let me down with HiDiamond cables. I have had both good and bad experiences with SR equipment.
You got an upgrade on your new SR cables? I didn't know they had an upgrade program Please provide the details. I thought they only had an "up-trade" program. Up-trade is not at all the same as upgrade. With the former you lose a substantial part of your investment. But with the latter you do not. If SR had an upgrade program for their Powercell I would not have had to take a huge haircut when I sold mine recently. If you wait long enough the Powercell you bought last year and may want to sell this year or next year may have no resale value at all.
This is the kind of think that irks me so much. A good quality amp or a pre-amp or a DAC or a transport or an isolation transformer or a power regenerator can retain a lot of its original value and, if sold off, can fetch a reasonable price even after many years.
But a power conditioner that sees one iteration after the next loses most of its value eventually -- and is eventually seen as not living up to the marketing hype that accompanied its purchase. Each iteration is accompanied with more superlative superlatives -- and each version eventually becomes redundant. It is not easy to reconcile the two halves of this coin |
Joeyboynj and Knghifi,
Here is another way of looking at this Powercell thing. Version 1 cost you $5,000. About 2 and a half years later version 5 will cost you $5,000. How much is your version 1 now worth? At least 80% less than your purchase price -- and perhaps your version 1 has no actual resale value in the marketplace.
So, you may be forced into an up-trade policy that says you have to spend $10,000 to get a 70% value from your old Powercell. That means you have to find another SR product you want to purchase that costs at least $10,000 which will see you a further $6,500 out of pocket -- total out of pocket in 2 and a half years comes to $11,500. Who could honestly call this a generous up-trade policy? This is what I call a "we win -- you lose" policy. And if you get cheesed off or don't have another SR product you want to buy with the up-trade -- and have the deep pockets for it -- you are out in the cold. That's the real audio world -- sans hype.
Another way of looking at this is that, 2 and a half years ago, you spent $5,000 on a product that has perhaps, if you are lucky, 20% of the sonic effectiveness of the equivalent-priced product today. How do you feel about that?
If there is one cell in version 1 and there are 2 cells in version 2 and there are 3 cells in version 3 then one might come to the reasonable conclusion that all of this was part of a carefully planned marketing scheme. This may make sense for the bottom line -- but there is another side to the coin -- the customer's side. How many times can a customer afford to up-trade? How many audiophiles have pockets deep enough to play this game? Many audiophiles have to be careful with their audio dollars while others do not.
Ultimately, IMO, this kind of policy is destructive of customer base. People start to walk away -- which is what so many are doing now. The feeling is "I've taken a huge haircut in a very short time -- and I dont like the feeling". The logical remedy for this is an upgrade policy. Thats a win-win situation. Not a win-lose situation. |
Knghifi,
Thus, you have agreed with what I have been saying -- that the SR line and trade-up policy is only for the well-heeled. The Basik line is not worth a pinch of coon -- it's just a token gesture to give people without deep pockets the illusion that they can also be members of the club. They cannot. Same for the trade-up policy.
All of this has nothing whatsoever to do with entitlement. It has to do with maximizing the audio value of one's hard-earned money. I imagine there are "more than enough" SR customers like yourself who don't have this problem. But, in case you did not notice or are unaware of the fact, SR is very well aware of changes in the marketplace. Their new cables are far less expensive than their previous line and they deliver more, thus destroying the value of their earlier line for resale and forcing customers into the trade-up program if they want to see anything at all back from their old cables. SR are no fools.
By the way, you may live in an entitled society but I do not. I live abroad -- in a third world country where there is no entitlement at all. |
Knghifi,
You stated the following:
1. "Trade in or upgrade program are for consumers that don't want to deal with selling it themselves."
I don't know anyone on Audiogon who does not "want to deal with" selling an item that will fetch them a reasonable price. The uptrade policy of SR is for those who have virtually no alternative. This is obvious. Who would take up the "offer" to purchase an item twice as expensive as the one they bought earlier if they were not already in the market for that product -- unless they had no other choice -- or had very deep pockets?
2. "Sabai, I know you are special but I hate to break this to you, companies exist to make money and not to serve you." They can ONLY exist if profitable ..."
Since I am no more special than other Audiogon member I have no idea why you make this rather puerile statement about being "special".
I am a businessman. It may come as a shock that I know businesses have to make money to survive. But you got the last part dead wrong. Without serving their customers a business will have no customers. That's a moot point. The problem is how well they serve them.
3. "My 1st desktop computer running Windows 3.1 cost $7500 and my latest laptop with everything top of the line cost $1750. It's call innovation, increased productivity and I LOVE it."
Of course, your analogy is totally false. Computers are not high end audio equipment. They are not upgradeable in the way that many audio companies upgrade their equipment -- Merlin and Atma-Sphere come to mind. And there are so many others. Innovation does not always mean abandoning an earlier version of a product. In fact, many audio companies build their customer base on upgrading. So, the audio fact is often the exact opposite of what you are stating.
4. "If you want something bad enough, IMO, the only way is to improve your financial situation. Taking action takes MORE effort, sacrifice ... than complaining and blaming others for your short falls."
The point is not "short falls" at all. The point is that high end audio has many buyers with deep enough pockets that they do not need to "take MORE effort", as you put it, to make more money. They just don't want to throw their money away unnecessarily. I have made enough money these past years to put together a pretty good system. I can afford what I want. But I am not foolish enough to throw my money away. Why should I? I work too hard for it. I want the best possible value for my audio dollars.
Regarding your comment about taking "MORE effort, sacrifice", I work 365 days a year. I do not need to be lectured on working harder. Thank you.
This is about giving audiophiles who can afford to enter the ballpark more choices. The companies that do so are to be highly commended. They truly serve their customers well. And, you may have noticed, they attract a following of loyal and often vocal supporters who are happy to stick with them because they appreciate what those companies are doing for them. It is like a partnership. These are the companies I especially like dealing with. These companies show they care. They work hard to please their customers by adding value -- at a reasonable cost -- to an already valuable product. They do not require customers to sell their products off at a loss in order to purchase the next version.
There are different ways to make a profit. The route that companies choose to take is not inevitably, as you make out, against their customers' best interests. There are many possible routes to take that will produce a profit. This is a choice that companies make. There is no law that says that companies must refuse to act in the best interest of their customers to be successful. On the contrary. Those that choose to do act more in line with their customers' interests do very well in high end audio. |
"Power cords. They cant possibly make a difference, can they? ... The answer is Yes. Unequivocally, resoundingly, and oh my, Yes. How big a difference? ... To put it in perspective, the difference is akin to replacing an undistinguished MOSFET stereo amp with a pair of absolutely top-flight mono tube amps or replacing a midfi direct-drive turntable with a well set up Linn, Sota, or VPI. To say I was unprepared for the difference these power cords made would be a big, big understatement ... for what they do, they represent the biggest bang for the audio buck I have seen."
What are we talking about here? The Apex or the Element Tungsten? No. This is from the The Absolute Sound 2004 review of the SR Master Coupler power cord reprinted on the Synergistic Research site here:
http://www.synergisticresearch.com/reviews/ac-master-coupler/
This is what I mean by being careful how you spend your hard-earned audio dollars. Don't believe everything you read. You might be reading the same thing tomorrow about the next latest and greatest. |
